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Sam Harris with Bart Ehrman
- Thread starter ambush80
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ambush80
Senior Member
At about 17min in, Sam says the records of the miracles are hearsay. Is this correct or a great exaggeration?
ambush80
Senior Member
Bart at 18:
"People from inside a tradition evaluate probability differently than people outside of that tradition."
True or false?
"People from inside a tradition evaluate probability differently than people outside of that tradition."
True or false?
ambush80
Senior Member
Around 19:
Bart says that people think that the fact that the Disciples were willing to be martyred is proof of their claims that they saw Jesus after his death. I've never heard anyone wonder if martyrdom was kind of a thing that Bronze Age Middle Eastern men looked forward to for themselves. Have they always admired martyrdom for ideology? Is it a new thing they do or has it been around for a while? I think it's old.
Bart says that people think that the fact that the Disciples were willing to be martyred is proof of their claims that they saw Jesus after his death. I've never heard anyone wonder if martyrdom was kind of a thing that Bronze Age Middle Eastern men looked forward to for themselves. Have they always admired martyrdom for ideology? Is it a new thing they do or has it been around for a while? I think it's old.
ambush80
Senior Member
32:31
Sam making a joke.
Sam making a joke.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I listened to 80% of it
ambush80
Senior Member
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
It was nothing new to me. I have listened to alot of erhman, not recent, but in past years, before youtube was popular. The problem with listening to erhman is that 30% of his beginning is overlap from other lectures. I do understand this, his lectures at different places, him needing to set the stage. However, the overlap gets old. This was just a different format. If you have not heard much of erhman, then you may not know this. LOL, I could have answered those questions for erhman. I like Erhman. I find him refereshing, because unlike Christians, if the bible said the earth was flat, we would still be arguing over that. He does not force anything into scripture, refreshing unbiased. I do disagree with him on several interpretations where he uses this interpretation to derive at what I consider wrong outcomes. Example, Paul uses an analogy of known OT scripture to make a point about present times the church was facing. Erhman takes it as literal and goes off in the direction that the church is plagued with sexual immorality. However, Erhman, agree with him or not, would be the best sunday school teacher I have ever heard. His teaching brings to life the life and conflict of the early church. Christians hate him, for reason you can imagine, not knowing that he could teach them so much, if they were brave enough to disagree here and there. As far as "what do you think". It would need to be in regards to specifics. If you do ask specific, a time stamp of the point would be good so I could see the context
ambush80
Senior Member
Is Ehrman wrong about any of what he said. Allot of it was new to me.
jmharris23
Moderator
I haven’t listened yet, but I am going to tomorrow. But I read this recently so I figured I would include it here.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/jesus-before-the-gospels/
WaltL1
Senior Member
What a mess.
IF what he says is right then what he says is wrong.
IF what somebody else says is right then what both he and they say is wrong.
IF.....
IF.....
IF......
And round and round we go.
This is the end result of the work of an omni everything God?
IF what he says is right then what he says is wrong.
IF what somebody else says is right then what both he and they say is wrong.
IF.....
IF.....
IF......
And round and round we go.
This is the end result of the work of an omni everything God?
I'm sure that most, probably all, of Erdman's propositions can be supported (hopefully that's in the book, so that the strength can be evaluated); but the sufficiency of the support is dependent upon one's bent.
The only new thing, that I recall, was Erhman's comment concerning women in 1 Cor.. I don't recall having previously come across the idea that it was a late addition.
The reason "I can't believe I listened to the whole thing" is that which is opposed. It's staw men to me. I recognize the belief's that they describe, but don't recall any that are mine.
Israel
BANNED
When everything among men is seen as such an irremediable "wash" (this one says this, then that one says that) there's something of an acute pain...isn't there?
A pressing? Sensing of a pressing? Pressure to "come" to some sort of resolution when this becomes unbearably...plain.
It appears the saying that "all men are right" is just not on the table...to be said. It's simply not an option. After all...it is the manifest evidence of that "wash" (contradicting men each voicing their stance) that causes this pressure.
No, I can't find any remedy in saying "all men are right". I can say it...but anytime I meet a man with whom I obviously disagree, can't even help myself from knowing...I disagree, something's gonna come as pressure against...undeniable pressure against, that stance. "All men are right" gets broke down in a hurry.
If I say "all men are wrong" I adopt the cynics view...and to himself...it sounds...logical. (And it is always such a very inviting, for reasons unbeknownst to the cynic, position) "all men are wrong!" The cynic, till it is revealed to him...(and who knows if it may ever be...who can see how it could...ever be?) cannot even see his obvious, and completely untenable position. He's the man saying manifestly, "I know this truth...'all men are wrong' " In order for that to be even remotely a "truth" he's self admitting "I am not man".
There's so much more that might be said, but I am shut up.
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ambush80
Senior Member
They claim that they're trying to be objective and find the truth. That is what their bent is. What makes you think that's not what they're after?
Do you think Ehrman might have remained a Christian if he had never been charged with translating the Bible?
My intended reference was to the consumer, not the producer.
Your outside my paygrade/job description.
ambush80
Senior Member
Would you recommend to a person interested in Christianity that they read Ehrman or listen to this podcast?
That would depend on the person and what I know of their interests and experiences.
>>>edit<<< Come to think of it, I have know trouble finding material to fill my needs (there is too much of it), I doubt that anyone who should read it would have any trouble finding it. But the original still applies.
ambush80
Senior Member
Me and you discussing this raised a thought in my mind. We've got some church planters that moved in next door and I was thinking that I should share this podcast with them. I'm pretty good friends with him and we often discuss the Bible, God and faith. Then it occurred to me that I didn't want to share this with him. I kind of like that they're differently minded than us. They bring flavor to the block. My other Jewish neighbors believe in ghosts and Karma and my other neighbor believes that certain gems have properties that effect physiology. I don't seem to want to change their views for the same reasons; they make life interesting. When pressed, they will all admit that they don't have any rational reasons for their beliefs, just feelings. They know I'm a skeptic and an Atheist but they don't mind sharing their irrational beliefs with me.
On second thought, I will share the podcast with him. He can handle it and we might have some cool conversation about it. I'm guessing he'll dismiss it or say that it's "out of his pay grade" like he does with challenges to his belief that the Earth is 6,000 years old, but we might have fun.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
Erhman states often that his walk away from faith was suffering of good people and the bible, specifically, if God wrote it then why did he allow men to tamper with it, why not preserve it. And from there, it fell apart, but that was the initial struggle
