Should churches exclude certain professions from membership?

[pjciii]

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:28

All, not exclusion

 

[pjciii]

Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to.
1 Timothy 5:13

 

[gemcgrew]

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:28

All, not exclusion

All weary and burdened. The not weary and not burdened are excluded.

 

[pjciii]

If you are worried about being exclude then you are burdened. Your included.

 

[BeerThirty]

 

[gemcgrew]

If you are worried about being exclude then you are burdened. Your included.

Now the not worried are excluded. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it not so.

 

[ryanh487]

Not sassy at all, I simply stated Biblical references to Paul and Timothy drinking wine. We do know that Jesus drank wine at the Passover meal because that was the what was drank. We also know that the idea that Jesus drank grape juice rather than wine is nonsense because grape juice pasteurization had not been developed and the grape juice would spoil rather quickly.

Why must gambling involve money, gambling is simply a game of chance. And even if it involves money, is it anything more than entertainment? Excess my friend, excess in anything is what causes the problem.

Don't drink, don't smoke, don't dance, it's all just cheap grace. Let's keep our eye on the ball.

BTW you still didn't answer why you think Jesus didn't drink wine.

Not to say that there is a problem with drinking, but they DID have other means of storing grape juice without fermentation, especially for poor people. It was common practice to filter out the grape skins and remove proteins and yeast to prevent fermentation, and then boil down the juice into a syrup. The sugar content would prevent bacterial and fungal growth and it could be stored in pitch-sealed earthen jars in underground cellars or even in pools of cold water for months at a time, and then mixed with water for consumption. Fermentation required perfect temperature conditions and lots of time, and the average person did not have the means to prepare and store fermented wine.

 

[Madman]

Not to say that there is a problem with drinking, but they DID have other means of storing grape juice without fermentation, especially for poor people. It was common practice to filter out the grape skins and remove proteins and yeast to prevent fermentation, and then boil down the juice into a syrup. The sugar content would prevent bacterial and fungal growth and it could be stored in pitch-sealed earthen jars in underground cellars or even in pools of cold water for months at a time, and then mixed with water for consumption. Fermentation required perfect temperature conditions and lots of time, and the average person did not have the means to prepare and store fermented wine.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
"Do not put new wine in old wine skins."

 

[ryanh487]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
"Do not put new wine in old wine skins."

I drink. In fact I'm going out for pizza and beer tonight like I do every Sunday. My point was just that the logic of "had to be fermented because there was no other way" is flawed, and historically inaccurate.

 

[Madman]

I drink. In fact I'm going out for pizza and beer tonight like I do every Sunday. My point was just that the logic of "had to be fermented because there was no other way" is flawed, and historically inaccurate.

My point is that the vast majority of evidence speaks to wine not grape juice.

 

[Madman]

I drink. In fact I'm going out for pizza and beer tonight like I do every Sunday. My point was just that the logic of "had to be fermented because there was no other way" is flawed, and historically inaccurate.

I would be interested in the historical evidence of grape juice production in ancient Israel.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Without refrigeration, most any kind of everything would ferment. Milk to fermented things, cabbage to sauerkraut, juices to wine or vinegar. Even meat would ferment.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Not to say that there is a problem with drinking, but they DID have other means of storing grape juice without fermentation, especially for poor people. It was common practice to filter out the grape skins and remove proteins and yeast to prevent fermentation, and then boil down the juice into a syrup. The sugar content would prevent bacterial and fungal growth and it could be stored in pitch-sealed earthen jars in underground cellars or even in pools of cold water for months at a time, and then mixed with water for consumption. Fermentation required perfect temperature conditions and lots of time, and the average person did not have the means to prepare and store fermented wine.

Yes, and they called that grape juice if it existed. Wine is fermented by definition.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

do you think that Jesus ate on a regular basis, since gluttony is sin, and it has the ability to be so destructive?

After taking some time on this over the weekend to reflect on your question in light of my past sins and what I have learned from them, I will settle it here with a severely disturbed conscious.

Any act of selfishness, from the Original Sin on down is a sin. Every deliberate action we engage in either serves one of two purposes; to serve/glorify ourself or to serve/glorify God. I don't think any of that is new or debatable; His will or our will be done. Pretty simple concept.

With that in mind and in regards to gluttony specifically, it occurred to me that most envision "a big ole fat man/woman pigging out at a dinner table", but let's put it in the appropriate spiritual context since we are discussing God's will and not ours. Let's give it that 'Sermon on the Mount" magnification.

It's not a pleasant picture, at least not to me. My family spends a minimum of $40 every time we eat out. Forty dollars will feed 2 families in Malawi, who are currently experiencing a famine, for a month. How is it NOT gluttony for me and my family to eat at McDonalds with my brothers and sisters along with their children and parents. starving, literally, to death. If I spend $100 on a bait caster that's choosing my needs over feeding 5 starving families for an entire month: Gluttony. See what I mean? $5 bucks on a 6 pack or pack of cigarettes; that's one person for a month. Just how committed am I to DOING God's Will? How committed are you? It's tough ain't it.

It's tough because we have 'stuff'. If we had literally nothing but the shirt on our backs like those brothers and sisters it would be easier, but we here in America are rich beyond their comprehension and OUR appreciation. I don't think there's a one of us that can accuse another of gluttony without accusing ourselves. So here I stand accused: I accuse myself. The question is what am I prepared to do about it......His will or my will?

I hope this answered your question, albeit in a larger context.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Christ also said go and sin no more.

1 Cor 6:3
Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

God didn't appoint us to condemn people, but He did give us guidelines so that we can look at their actions and decide if they are bearing good fruit or bad fruit

True. Very true. However regarding excluding people, it's not our place. We didn't "include" them, God did, and we certainly have no say in any of it. To imagine we do is to exhibit a very dangerous hubris.

My experience has taught me that God's word will either wash people or wash them away. All we have to do is all we can do, just espouse it truthfully, reliably and unashamedly. God has washed me and washed me and washed me to the point I have thought I was washed away completely; abandoned by God. I was hard headed, proud and very sinful. It took a lot of water, a lot of time(decades), a lot of scrubbing and thus a lot of pain for me to finally come to KNOW God. It wasn't an instant process, and I'm still in the process of developing that relationship from my end. I'm still my own worst enemy. I'm just grateful no church or church members decided I wasn't to be included. That would have just served to negatively reinforce my insanity that the Church as I saw it then, was an accurate reflection of God.

The Church is ONLY an accurate reflection of God WHEN AND ONLY WHEN, it is actually actively, demonstrably, showing God's love to the needy and lost. That applies to ME too, not just the Church or a church. If i'm not loving through working to serve God by serving others, i'm dead too, spiritually and soon to be physically.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

“Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Makes no mention of profession, and speaks of MEMBERS who are openly, actively, engaged in sin be it the pastor, deacon or established member. But, BUT, this should only, I repeat only, should be done after

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and rebuke him in private.If he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he won’t listen, take one or two more with you, so that by the testimonyof two or three witnesses every fact may be established.17 If he pays no attention to them, tell the church.But if he doesn’t pay attention even to the church, let him be like an unbeliever and a tax collector to you.

with this spirit in mind

Brothers,if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

A very sinful man can be saved and attend church and it may take year's for him to mature. If you boot him from church you are hindering his maturation. It's akin to kicking someone out of a shower before he's clean. You haven't did him any favors and are working against the cleansing process. The key indicator is spiritual growth, not spiritual perfection. Now if he's importing pigs and mud into the shower, that's another matter entirely. That's very, very, rare but was what Paul was apparently dealing with in Corinth.

Also mind you, the church may do that, but he may still be a member or future member of The Church. Our weak and bumbling interpretation of doctrine doesn't dictate God's will. You would be wise to stay humble enough to remember that.

 

[LittleDrummerBoy]

Makes no mention of profession, and speaks of MEMBERS who are openly, actively, engaged in sin be it the pastor, deacon or established member.

The verses in 1 Corinthians 5 are explicitly stated to apply to ANYONE who fulfills the stated criteria - professing believer and active in one of the ongoing sins listed. There is no stated requirement that they be a member or that if one of the sins is secret or part of a profession the person may remain in fellowship. Should an unrepentant drunkard be allowed to remain in church simply because they endeavor to keep the sin a secret?

Or would you really say that if one's idolatry or sexual immorality were in a professional capacity, they could remain in church indefinitely? A church should exclude an unrepentant amateur swindler (and professing Christian), but they should not exclude an unrepentant professional swindler?

Since those notions are so foolish, it is clear that churches can and should exclude some professions from membership. The remaining question is which professions should and should not be excluded, which is the subject of the original post.

 

[pjciii]

“ ‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “ ‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord .
Leviticus 19:16

 

[pjciii]

Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James 4:11

 

[SemperFiDawg]

The remaining question is which professions should and should not be excluded, which is the subject of the original post.

Again, you simply don’t get it. It’s not about the profession, but the HEART of the professor. Legalism,in all cases, is an apostate system of interpreting scripture. Scripture is spiritual, of the true heart and soul of a persons nature. Legalism is, by its very definition, non-spiritual. It’s doesnt seek to either understand or acknowledge the individuals heart, something Christ so passionately demonstrated daily. Legalism says your profession is “x” , you are excluded from OUR kingdom. Christ says “Come”.