The mind is a terrible thing

Asath

Senior Member
I haven’t bought that one yet. I understand, from the reviews, that it promises, in the form of a novel, to finally synthesize his view of things into an understandable form. The man is 80 years old, after all, and still teaching. But ‘understandable’ is also a relative term, since the novels have only been the narrative and rather experimental expression of a lifetime of learning and thinking that is often (in his non-fiction writings) so dense and beyond common comprehension that one’s brain ends up bruised even in the third re-reading of it.

As a semiologist and philosopher, he uses words and symbolic expression with the accuracy of a surgeon, and as an historian and classical scholar he seldom stumbles. Without a grounding in Roland Barthes, Italo Calvino, Noam Chomsky, and, in the modern age, Steven Pinker, among many others (Pettit springs immediately to mind) it is nearly impossible to decipher the real meaning of a single sentence. For Eco, it is all just a fun game of challenging us to keep up. I’ll readily admit that I often fail that test.

I’ve read every bit of ‘The Semiotic Challenge’ five times, and I’m still struck cold when I run into lines from Eco like this: “As they are optative possibilia, these individual things might also (successively) not exist: but references to possibilia can be made. Is it possible to make references to impossibilia or, in any event, to inconceivable objects?” Ten years I’ve been banging my head against that one (from ‘Kant and the Platypus’), and the question itself is so filled with danger that it almost can’t be answered.

On the surface, he asks one to make a distinction, which is necessarily personal, between what is possible and what is not. But then it gets ugly, as you parse the thought – what really is the possible? Allowing references to the possible forces one to define just what is possible. I’ve never seen a unicorn, or an elf, or a Sasquatch, or a UFO, but are those things among the possibilia? Or are they among the ‘optative possibilia,’ which might exist, and be referred to as though they do, with no evidence of same? They might not exist, he suggests, but they also might. So common discourse seems to allow references to things that may not exist, but that folks might include among the ‘possible.’

But what of the impossible? And here he merely asks the question, and leaves it to the reader to answer – Can one (legitimately) make reference to the inconceivable? And here the question becomes less simple, and becomes rather murky – If one’s definition of something is that it cannot be understood, that thing fails the test of the ‘possibilia.’ If something is ‘inconceivable,’ then it is. Not conceivable. It would be rather odd to begin to assign attributes and characteristics to something that one cannot include among the conceivable. Defining anything at all as ‘beyond our understanding’ makes that thing inconceivable, and delegitimizes any reference to that thing by the simple lack of an operative (optative) definition. If something IS simply by declaration, and cannot be demonstrated in any other way, then it is almost a sure thing that that thing is not. Existence tends to require existence.

I won’t include myself among those who are advancing the upper echelons of rational thinking, nor dare to assert that I know one hundredth of what Eco knows, but that doesn’t prevent me from continuing to learn and think on my own, separate from what self-interested ‘preachers’ would like me to swallow. Possible. Impossible. They are opposite propositions, and allow for no middle ground.
 

mtnwoman

Senior Member
Let's simplify this as much as possible in hopes to see a picture. We were created to live like Adam. Imagine the life he was banished from. The goal is that when we are born again into the "second Adam", we will oneday enjoy this "relationship in paradise'

OMGosh, I pray so, my one and only love has been gone for 35 years, a marine in vietnam....he was either killed in a hunting accident or suicide, all I know was he had a 22 in his right eye, from a dropped and 'misfired' gun. I pray Lord, let me come to peace with this great loss....or be united...and I believe/hope we will be.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
I haven’t bought that one yet. I understand, from the reviews, that it promises, in the form of a novel, to finally synthesize his view of things into an understandable form. The man is 80 years old, after all, and still teaching. But ‘understandable’ is also a relative term, since the novels have only been the narrative and rather experimental expression of a lifetime of learning and thinking that is often (in his non-fiction writings) so dense and beyond common comprehension that one’s brain ends up bruised even in the third re-reading of it.

As a semiologist and philosopher, he uses words and symbolic expression with the accuracy of a surgeon, and as an historian and classical scholar he seldom stumbles. Without a grounding in Roland Barthes, Italo Calvino, Noam Chomsky, and, in the modern age, Steven Pinker, among many others (Pettit springs immediately to mind) it is nearly impossible to decipher the real meaning of a single sentence. For Eco, it is all just a fun game of challenging us to keep up. I’ll readily admit that I often fail that test.

I’ve read every bit of ‘The Semiotic Challenge’ five times, and I’m still struck cold when I run into lines from Eco like this: “As they are optative possibilia, these individual things might also (successively) not exist: but references to possibilia can be made. Is it possible to make references to impossibilia or, in any event, to inconceivable objects?” Ten years I’ve been banging my head against that one (from ‘Kant and the Platypus’), and the question itself is so filled with danger that it almost can’t be answered.

On the surface, he asks one to make a distinction, which is necessarily personal, between what is possible and what is not. But then it gets ugly, as you parse the thought – what really is the possible? Allowing references to the possible forces one to define just what is possible. I’ve never seen a unicorn, or an elf, or a Sasquatch, or a UFO, but are those things among the possibilia? Or are they among the ‘optative possibilia,’ which might exist, and be referred to as though they do, with no evidence of same? They might not exist, he suggests, but they also might. So common discourse seems to allow references to things that may not exist, but that folks might include among the ‘possible.’

But what of the impossible? And here he merely asks the question, and leaves it to the reader to answer – Can one (legitimately) make reference to the inconceivable? And here the question becomes less simple, and becomes rather murky – If one’s definition of something is that it cannot be understood, that thing fails the test of the ‘possibilia.’ If something is ‘inconceivable,’ then it is. Not conceivable. It would be rather odd to begin to assign attributes and characteristics to something that one cannot include among the conceivable. Defining anything at all as ‘beyond our understanding’ makes that thing inconceivable, and delegitimizes any reference to that thing by the simple lack of an operative (optative) definition. If something IS simply by declaration, and cannot be demonstrated in any other way, then it is almost a sure thing that that thing is not. Existence tends to require existence.


I won’t include myself among those who are advancing the upper echelons of rational thinking, nor dare to assert that I know one hundredth of what Eco knows, but that doesn’t prevent me from continuing to learn and think on my own, separate from what self-interested ‘preachers’ would like me to swallow. Possible. Impossible. They are opposite propositions, and allow for no middle ground.

Durnd' it all if that just don't make sense.

Does Eco mean that the existence of unicorns, since they can be imagined in terms that we can understand, is more plausible than the existence of God? And could God move into the same realm of plausibility as unicorns if we limit his supernatural powers to only the things that we might be able to conceive of?
 

Asath

Senior Member
I don’t think, in context, that he was referring to the question of gods specifically, but as you noticed that extension of the thought is easily made. In the quote at hand, the word ‘optative’ takes on the original Greek meaning of ‘wishful.’ So a distinction is made between wishful possibilities which, though nonexistent, do actually have a plausible, understandable set of definitions that are within the bounds of the known possibilia, and wishful possibilities that do not have any such links to what is known as possible.

So I suppose, in that context, a unicorn is certainly more possible than a god, since no one yet has suggested that a unicorn was able to simply blink the universe into being on a whim. A unicorn, or an elf, or a little green man from Mars is imagined as fanciful, but subject to the laws of the universe as we know them, and all such imaginings are similarly constructed within the bounds of what we think is possible. This type of imaginative construction does not actually make those things exist, but teases many into believing that they might due to their connection to known reality.

And if one delves into the history of gods, it is easy to see that polytheistic systems had this part already figured out. Each of their gods had a limited and defined role (as well as a defined physical description), linked to an earthly concern, and the limits themselves made the gods more plausible to the masses. When the idea of invisible higher powers was consolidated into a singular, all-knowing, all-powerful presence, the connection with the possible was severed. Suddenly people were asked to abandon the older gods, who were decidedly odd but at least conceivable, in favor of an abstract singular that defies any reasonable explanation. So, yes, gods were once conceivable simply because their powers were limited.

What any of this might mean, on a practical level, is anyone’s coin toss, since it still amounts to arguing over whether King Kong could beat Godzilla in a fair fight – all of it is fiction and has always been. But still it tends to help the thought process if one can begin to make distinctions, and in the known universe King Kong is possible, while God is not. It is far easier to believe in the possible.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
I don’t think, in context, that he was referring to the question of gods specifically, but as you noticed that extension of the thought is easily made. In the quote at hand, the word ‘optative’ takes on the original Greek meaning of ‘wishful.’ So a distinction is made between wishful possibilities which, though nonexistent, do actually have a plausible, understandable set of definitions that are within the bounds of the known possibilia, and wishful possibilities that do not have any such links to what is known as possible.

So I suppose, in that context, a unicorn is certainly more possible than a god, since no one yet has suggested that a unicorn was able to simply blink the universe into being on a whim. A unicorn, or an elf, or a little green man from Mars is imagined as fanciful, but subject to the laws of the universe as we know them, and all such imaginings are similarly constructed within the bounds of what we think is possible. This type of imaginative construction does not actually make those things exist, but teases many into believing that they might due to their connection to known reality.

And if one delves into the history of gods, it is easy to see that polytheistic systems had this part already figured out. Each of their gods had a limited and defined role (as well as a defined physical description), linked to an earthly concern, and the limits themselves made the gods more plausible to the masses. When the idea of invisible higher powers was consolidated into a singular, all-knowing, all-powerful presence, the connection with the possible was severed. Suddenly people were asked to abandon the older gods, who were decidedly odd but at least conceivable, in favor of an abstract singular that defies any reasonable explanation. So, yes, gods were once conceivable simply because their powers were limited.

What any of this might mean, on a practical level, is anyone’s coin toss, since it still amounts to arguing over whether King Kong could beat Godzilla in a fair fight – all of it is fiction and has always been. But still it tends to help the thought process if one can begin to make distinctions, and in the known universe King Kong is possible, while God is not. It is far easier to believe in the possible.

Amen.
 

Four

Senior Member
See post #161.

I believe the essence of the argument is that if you assign "unimaginable" qualities to a thing then that makes the thing impossible; part of the Impossibilia.:huh:

Yuup, paradoxes don't exist in the real world, so when you assign quantities to a concept that are paradoxical, you know that concept isn't in the real world (doesn't exist)

its like saying there exists a jabberwalky, that is a square circle. a square circle is a paradox, it doesnt exist!
 

ambush80

Senior Member
Yuup, paradoxes don't exist in the real world, so when you assign quantities to a concept that are paradoxical, you know that concept isn't in the real world (doesn't exist)

its like saying there exists a jabberwalky, that is a square circle. a square circle is a paradox, it doesnt exist!

A square circle is just nonsense. I think a better example would be to say that "something that can travel faster than you can imagine" can't exist because it's undefined. More plausible would be to say that something can travel 500trillion times faster than the speed of light, but as stated before, that would be like discussing King Kong fighting Godzilla which is still more believable than the God of the Bible fighting the God of the Koran, even though they are the same god.
 

JB0704

I Gots Goats
See post #161.

I believe the essence of the argument is that if you assign "unimaginable" qualities to a thing then that makes the thing impossible; part of the Impossibilia.:huh:


Ok, I read #161, and follow somewhat. One thing is that I can't accept that unimaginable is impossible because somebody says so, can you? And the inverse, are things possible only when they are imaginable?

....or am I missing something here?
 

ambush80

Senior Member
Ok, I read #161, and follow somewhat. One thing is that I can't accept that unimaginable is impossible because somebody says so, can you? And the inverse, are things possible only when they are imaginable?

....or am I missing something here?

I think it's saying that something bigger, faster, hotter, colder or stinkier etc. than anyone can imagine can't exist because it defies definition. Its one thing to say that Jesus can fly 500 billion miles per hour and another thing to say that he can fly faster than one can imagine.

Maybe Asath will come back and help explain it.
 

Asath

Senior Member
Long post, again. (sorry.)

This is a rough one, among many others, and as I said I’ve been banging my own head against the thought for years and I’m no closer to an answer. But it makes sense on a level that is difficult to articulate.

Let’s look at it this way—a fish does not consider water to be a philosophical problem. Born in water, raised in water, knowing nothing other than water, the only problem it might encounter is a lack of water. To a fish, land is impossible.

We’re a bit more developed (well, some of us are, anyway), and we have things like the Hubble Space Telescope, which has clearly demonstrated that there isn’t really a Heaven just above the clouds, which was the operative definition of the unknown when all of these ‘holy’ writings were authored. Back then, the sky itself was a philosophical problem, because nobody understood what it was. Back then, when this stuff was first written, the existence of anything above the clouds that wasn’t God was impossible.

They had the same fears and curiosities we have, but they had no means of alleviating those fears with anything other than fanciful stories of ‘gods.’ Worked for them. Worked even better for the rulers, for whom fear among the masses was their only operative means of maintaining power. You will notice, again, that the rulers were not crazy, so the ‘gods’ were multiple. They knew darned well that a number of ‘gods’ with a number of limited responsibilities was easy to explain and easy to exploit. Polytheism made sense to most people of the time. A Sun God, a Moon God, a Volcano God, a God of War, a God of Peace . . . it made the perfect balance, to keep people off-guard and still alleviate their fears. Trust us, they said, and worship and sacrifice as we tell you, and we’ll take care of the rest . . .

It was plausible in limited doses. Then these rabble-rousing monotheists came along, knowing darned well that there were not ‘Gods’ of everything under the sun, and they tossed the whole established order on its head by proposing a SINGLE source. ONE God. This was a revolutionary idea. On the one hand, it rather simplified things for the masses, since they no longer had to offer up their goods to the rulers on a weekly basis simply to appease one god or another. They had begun to realize that this wasn’t working out so well for them in terms of outcomes. On the other hand, consolidating all of the gods they had grown up with into a single entity took some getting used to. Most of them resisted. Predictably, this resistance was met at sword-point.

The consolidation of all of the traditional gods into a singular only made it easier for the rulers. It rather left out the idea of credulity. Remember, that the people (the masses) were the ones who had been pressed into service by the rulers to build things like the pyramids and the various Temples of Aphrodite along the way. All of the notable monuments to the egos of the ruling class had that one thing in common, regardless of denomination. Folks were a bit sick of that, and when they were offered an alternative they bought it hook, line and sinker. A new ruling class was thus established, separate from lineage and independent of governance. But no different, it turns out.

So right there, historically, hinges the distinction -- it was never a question of, ‘Does God Exist?,’ since that question was, and remains the furthest from peoples minds. The question has always been, and also remains, ‘Who Gets To Be In Charge?’

The existence of gods has always been impossible, and we know that instinctively. So do the ‘religious’ leaders, and they have always known that. The impossible is simply that, and we need not spend much time debating it, though we seem unable to stop. The question of religions is no different than the question of nationality and the question of politics – “Who Gets To Rule?” That is all it has ever been, and all it will ever be. All else is just so many words and so many self-serving justifications. EVERY sect believes they are right. That in and of itself is impossible.

So I think the point the man was trying to make was actually quite simple – once one eliminates the impossible, only the truth remains. We can entertain ourselves with nonsense stories that are perhaps plausible, but we know just as well that there is no King Kong or Santa Claus, no matter how instructive we think the lessons are to children.
 

mtnwoman

Senior Member
So I think the point the man was trying to make was actually quite simple – once one eliminates the impossible, only the truth remains. We can entertain ourselves with nonsense stories that are perhaps plausible, but we know just as well that there is no King Kong or Santa Claus, no matter how instructive we think the lessons are to children.

There is a king kong, that giant comes into my life a lot and I have to slay that giant. God gives me the tool to do that. A sling, a rock, a prayer, whatever.

Santa Claus, nonsense?.....my daddy was my santa claus, I watched him stress over getting all his children a gift at Christmas, me being the oldest, I watched him. He taught me tenderness, and faithfulness in a God I could not see. He taught my brother to play guitar, my brother that walked around holding a play guitar at 3 yrs old. He went to my youngest brothers t ball up to little league games when he (my dad) was 60 yrs old...every game. There is a santa claus for everyone, mine is gone and I miss him.

When I can't move something in my home, I live alone and 60, I say God please help me to slay this giant and give me a clue/tool to move this or do that. And I always work it out, except for a few times here or there and then God sends someone to help me.

Imaginary? Not to me.
 
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