United Methodists repeal longstanding ban on LGBTQ clergy

[NCHillbilly]

Like I said, our church disaffiliated with the United Methodist Church some time back over this issue so for now anyway we’re good where this is concerned.

If I was a member of that church, I would be with you 100%. You can't profess to base your faith on the Bible, then directly contradict it.

 

[Spotlite]

If I was a member of that church, I would be with you 100%. You can't profess to base your faith on the Bible, then directly contradict it.

I haven’t really followed this thread in depth but the problem is this - “you can’t profess your faith on the Bible, then directly contradict it”

I have a gay cousin who is a preacher and he can twist scripture / history / translation / etc., to support his belief.

That doesn’t make him or the UMC church right, it just means they don’t see it as contradictory to the Bible.

To many, the Bible is full of truth, lies, mystery, contradiction, myth, fiction, etc.

I’m of the opinion it’s written that even an Atheist can use it to justify their non belief.

I’m also convinced that people misuse the Bible for their own justification and He will cause them to believe lie and be “doomed”

They don’t believe they’re wrong, even a hard right “Christian” that thinks his way is the right way.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I haven’t really followed this thread in depth but the problem is this - “you can’t profess your faith on the Bible, then directly contradict it”

I have a gay cousin who is a preacher and he can twist scripture / history / translation / etc., to support his belief.

That doesn’t make him or the UMC church right, it just means they don’t see it as contradictory to the Bible.

To many, the Bible is full of truth, lies, mystery, contradiction, myth, fiction, etc.

I’m of the opinion it’s written that even an Atheist can use it to justify their non belief.

I’m also convinced that people misuse the Bible for their own justification and He will cause them to believe lie and be “doomed”

They don’t believe they’re wrong, even a hard right “Christian” that thinks his way is the right way.

The ambiguousness and contradictions in the Bible is one reason that there are hundreds of different denominations that believe they are right, and everyone else is wrong.

This seems pretty downright plain and straightforward, though:
"If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them."

 

[Artfuldodger]

I’m also convinced that people misuse the Bible for their own justification and He will cause them to believe lie and be “doomed”

They don’t believe they’re wrong, even a hard right “Christian” that thinks his way is the right way.

What justification have people use to define what Paul says about women? Paul says women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes.

Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.

If it's in the rule book, why has this rule been justified? I probably shouldn't be asking you since I know how your denomination feels about it but in general for other denominations?

 

[Artfuldodger]

The ambiguousness and contradictions in the Bible is one reason that there are hundreds of different denominations that believe they are right, and everyone else is wrong.

This seems pretty downright plain and straightforward, though:
"If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them."

Sounds like that passage is geared to heterosexual married men? A gay man would not be liething with a woman. Nor would an unmarried heterosexual man.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Sounds like that passage is geared to heterosexual married men? A gay man would not be liething with a woman. Nor would an unmarried heterosexual man.

That ain't the way I would interpret it. Looks pretty pure and simple to me that it is saying that homosexuality, two men having sex with each other, is an abomination. It doesn't have any qualifiers that you are trying to pluck out of thin air and put there.

 

[Artfuldodger]

That ain't the way I would interpret it. Looks pretty pure and simple to me that it is saying that homosexuality, two men having sex with each other, is an abomination. It doesn't have any qualifiers that you are trying to pluck out of thin air and put there.

Romans 1:27 says it was heterosexuals.

Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another.

In other words these heterosexual men exchanged straight sex for gay sex. You can't abandon or exchange one thing for another if you weren't already doing it. They also exchanged some other stuff like worshiping God. They exchanged the truth for a lie.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I wonder if the UMC has changed the rule book to justify liking tax collectors?

 

[Spotlite]

What justification have people use to define what Paul says about women? Paul says women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes.

Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.

If it's in the rule book, why has this rule been justified? I probably shouldn't be asking you since I know how your denomination feels about it but in general for other denominations?

My denomination? I’ve never publicly stated any affiliation with any denomination.

Where we stand at my church - the Bible is specific on requirements for a person “in charge”. “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife” - how can a woman fill this requirement?

Silent - there’s an established order of headship and this doesn’t mean a woman doesn’t have a voice. The Bible is also clear on this - “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church“. And “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls,”

Rule of thumb - everyone follows someone as they follow God.

Anyone telling a woman they should stay silent doesn’t have a spiritual understanding of the Bible verse. They’ve taken Judas hung himself and go and do likewise and feared their own doctrine.

A woman is to be honored and taken care of. That’s the despicable thing about all this gender identity crap, it removes Godly order. It’s everything against anything Godly. A woman can certainly teach and evangelize…….but scripture just said she can’t Pastor. Correction should never come from evangelists passing through - correction should only come from your pastor because “they watch over your souls”

A pastor is still in the responsible role when any evangelist or any teacher is on the pulpit.

Justification - God is all about love. You're not supposed to hate homosexuality, you’re supposed to love it because Jesus did not come to condemn.

Remember Adam and Eve? Adam should have been paying attention to his wife.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Romans 1:27 says it was heterosexuals.

Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another.

In other words these heterosexual men exchanged straight sex for gay sex. You can't abandon or exchange one thing for another if you weren't already doing it. They also exchanged some other stuff like worshiping God. They exchanged the truth for a lie.

I don't think that's what that verse said at all. It's talking about gay men who abandoned natural sex and became homosexuals.

 

[NCHillbilly]

What justification have people use to define what Paul says about women? Paul says women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes.

Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.

If it's in the rule book, why has this rule been justified? I probably shouldn't be asking you since I know how your denomination feels about it but in general for other denominations?

I'm not afraid to say that there are things in the Bible that I just flat-out don't agree with, because I don't live in the culture that the people who wrote it did. It doesn't always apply to life as I know it in the world and culture I live in, so it's not my go-to life guide, even though I do agree with a lot of things in it, also.

Treating women as sub-human property is one of those things. My mom and grandma taught me a lot of important things. Grannies are a depository of wisdom. I think Paul was flat-out wrong and full of himself when he wrote that.

But then, I don't claim to be a church following the Bible and then picking through it. I just flat-out reject some of it.

 

[4HAND]

I am so thankful for my salvation through Jesus Christ.
We love our church & are very active in it.

When I was a young man I went through a church split. My uncle was the Pastor. It was very hurtful.
It didn't shake my faith in God, but for a long time I didn't care if I ever darkened the door of a church again.
I am so thankful that passed.

Back on topic - I don't see how any church could condone homosexuality, especially in their clergy. They have really missed the mark.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

You are entitled to your own opinion, as am I. I don't live my life according to a book written by middle eastern Hebrew desert dwellers 2000 years ago. I agree with many of the basic tenets in it, but I have absolutely nothing in common with them. They were from a different world, culture, and worldview. Meanwhile, I can feel myself that there is a higher power. I don't think you are qualified to tell me how I should interact with it any more than some dude from ancient Palestine who happened to own a pen and knew how to write was. If God exists and is all-powerful, you or me are stupid to think we understand it and speak for it. If you are correct, about 99% of the people ever living on earth are roasting in your imaginary hel!, no matter how sincerely they tried to live the right way according to what they grew up being taught. And you probably get satisfaction from that thought, sadly enough.
You can totally write me off as a viable or decent person now because I don't agree totally with your religious views. That's how it works, I reckon. And is one of the things I hate the most about organized religion in general. I don't feel that God would want you to think that way.

my goodness, you are really hurting, aren't you?

I never put you down, nor condemned you in any way. All I stated was what was written in the Bible. I have nothing against you, nor think any less of you because of your beliefs. That is between you and God. And that 99 percent you say is in the hot place, isn't mine to judge. The only one I can control and are responsible for is me. If those people are in the hot spot, It really makes me sad. I hate the thoughts of anyone in pain.

I believe you to be a decent and moral person, even if we don't agree on our religious beliefs. Every one of us is valuable and have innate worth, because in my view, we are all created in the image of God.

 

[Oldstick]

Had a Baptist preacher tell me one time that I wasn't baptized after finding out I grew up in the Methodist church and only had infant baptism with a wet hand. Well I knew what he meant about making the decision on my own as a mature person, but it still yanked me off knowing that it was my own Dad (as far as I know) who wet my head.

Not mention another "big name" Baptist preacher one time when I was a teen. His and my Dad's churches were next door to each other with monthly joint services, including the youth groups. He was always talking to us few Methodist youths, like he was concerned something was wrong with us. Well yes, something was wrong, we were teenagers, just like all of his 30+ teens. Same "pastor" made headlines a couple years later in GA and in TX for his extramarital affairs plus a stiff jail sentence for embezzlement from the churches.

 

[Artfuldodger]

My point was just to reiterate what others have said. That man has been changing the rule book since man has had in possession the rule book.
I guess over time though we have become conditioned to not find fault the the past changes such as women wearing gold and braided hair. The only ones I know who follow the rule book more closely are Oneness Pentecostals.
I'm not sure if they have lightened up on Tax Collectors though, that was another example of how we vary from the rule book and say that was from another time.

I don't know either how all of that stuff from back then pertains directly to me or for teaching. Just trying to show that things in the past have been changed.
Like I said earlier, Christian have evolved from the rule book over the past 100 years but Islam hasn't. I'm not gonna say if these change have been good or bad, just stating a fact.

Homosexuality acceptance is just the latest, Not too many years ago it was women teaching over man and women wearing gold and braids. You may think it's not as big a deal as gay sex but Paul says it is a big deal. We just have accepted it through our own justification.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm not afraid to say that there are things in the Bible that I just flat-out don't agree with, because I don't live in the culture that the people who wrote it did. It doesn't always apply to life as I know it in the world and culture I live in, so it's not my go-to life guide, even though I do agree with a lot of things in it, also.

Treating women as sub-human property is one of those things. My mom and grandma taught me a lot of important things. Grannies are a depository of wisdom. I think Paul was flat-out wrong and full of himself when he wrote that.

But then, I don't claim to be a church following the Bible and then picking through it. I just flat-out reject some of it.

I would agree with the parts you said about women. And nowadays or in my life as I have evolved from the 60's attitude of women, I have a hard time seeing all that Paul has said about women. His justification is because Adam was created before Eve. I don't see why women can't teach to men or be over men. That verse also says that God is over Christ, and now most of us don't see it that way. But some men do use the Bible to say that man is over woman the way God is over Christ and Christ is over the Church.
Now since I can't see it as Paul did, I try really hard to justify it. Using that same human logic, I try to understand homosexuality as being wrong. From a Christian perspective though, I'm to assume that it is wrong and Man is the head of woman.
Plus trying to evolve or justify it all in a family where my parents saw it all as Paul did.

 

[NCHillbilly]

My point was just to reiterate what others have said. That man has been changing the rule book since man has had in possession the rule book.
I guess over time though we have become conditioned to not find fault the the past changes such as women wearing gold and braided hair. The only ones I know who follow the rule book more closely are Oneness Pentecostals.
I'm not sure if they have lightened up on Tax Collectors though, that was another example of how we vary from the rule book and say that was from another time.

I don't know either how all of that stuff from back then pertains directly to me or for teaching. Just trying to show that things in the past have been changed.
Like I said earlier, Christian have evolved from the rule book over the past 100 years but Islam hasn't. I'm not gonna say if these change have been good or bad, just stating a fact.

Homosexuality acceptance is just the latest, Not too many years ago it was women teaching over man and women wearing gold and braids. You may think it's not as big a deal as gay sex but Paul says it is a big deal. We just have accepted it through our own justification.

I haven't accepted it all, one way or the other. I do not live in Israel at the turn of the last millennium.

 

[furtaker]

My point was just to reiterate what others have said. That man has been changing the rule book since man has had in possession the rule book.
I guess over time though we have become conditioned to not find fault the the past changes such as women wearing gold and braided hair. The only ones I know who follow the rule book more closely are Oneness Pentecostals.
I'm not sure if they have lightened up on Tax Collectors though, that was another example of how we vary from the rule book and say that was from another time.

I don't know either how all of that stuff from back then pertains directly to me or for teaching. Just trying to show that things in the past have been changed.
Like I said earlier, Christian have evolved from the rule book over the past 100 years but Islam hasn't. I'm not gonna say if these change have been good or bad, just stating a fact.

Homosexuality acceptance is just the latest, Not too many years ago it was women teaching over man and women wearing gold and braids. You may think it's not as big a deal as gay sex but Paul says it is a big deal. We just have accepted it through our own justification.

Most independent Baptist churches when I was growing up believed it was a sin for a woman to wear pants. Of course that's nowhere in Scripture; they just made it up so they could control people. I've had family members who believed it. As years went along, you would see more and and more of them start wearing pants as well as having other types of music in their services other than hymns with pianos and organs which they used to consider a sin as well. I've always wanted to ask them if it was them or the Bible who changed. I know the Lord doesn't change so I've always wanted to get them to admit they just wanted to control people but I never have.

 

[Tight Lines]

My sister goes to wine tastings at her Methodist church. Our Baptist church I grew up in would say you'll go to hel for drinking wine, even though Jesus did.
My church is the mountains, the woods, and the flowing streams.

My little town in KS had two churches...

Baptist and Methodist...

There was a running joke...

You know the difference in a Baptist and a Methodist? The Methodist will say hi to you in the liquor store...

 

[Danuwoa]

My little town in KS had two churches...

Baptist and Methodist...

There was a running joke...

You know the difference in a Baptist and a Methodist? The Methodist will say hi to you in the liquor store...

Yeah everybody knows that one.