gordon 2
Senior Member
The bible cannon(s) we know now were not known to all Christians for a few centuries after Jesus' resurrection. How were people saved?
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All I need is the Bible.
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gordon 2
Senior Member
Both the individual and collective mouth and independent of Paul's letters? How did a sinner, a gentile and a Jew, know that an individual and the collective were authoritative? Want did a prospect have to understand from the Word of a mouth that it was authoritative?
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
???
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Madman
Senior Member
Oral Tradition? And how was it preserved? How was it kept true to the faith? Who protected it and how?
Answers offer so many questions.
StriperAddict
Senior Member
“For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” (2 Tim 1:7)
". . . we love Him because He first loved us." (1 Jn 4:19) “. . . it's the goodness of God that leads you to repentance." (Rom. 4:2)
“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” (1 John 4:18)
Starting a Christian walk in understanding how good God is and how much He loves you, will be the difference of living a life of feeling safe & accepted, or living a life of trying to love God & behave right so that you stay in His graces & fearful that you aren’t. I have “been there & done that”, spending a lot of time confessing my sins for forgiveness, and trying to “get right” with God so that my prayers wouldn’t be hindered.
Either way, you are a Christian, saved by faith in Christ as Savior. One believing they have to stay “right” with God, the other realizing that Jesus’ finished work made them eternally “right” with God.
The difference is the quality of that life, the condemnation & guilt of self-righteousness, or the peace & joy of the Holy Spirit as found in the finished work of Christ.
==============
Some believe that the above scenario, believed, creates a rampant move of the flesh, others believe the Spirit will never lead anyone to sin, or in sin, yet they understand that sin is a force, a power within their fleshly bodies that tries to deceive by the world the flesh/sin and the devil.
And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, who will never leave us nor forsake us.
". . . we love Him because He first loved us." (1 Jn 4:19) “. . . it's the goodness of God that leads you to repentance." (Rom. 4:2)
“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” (1 John 4:18)
Starting a Christian walk in understanding how good God is and how much He loves you, will be the difference of living a life of feeling safe & accepted, or living a life of trying to love God & behave right so that you stay in His graces & fearful that you aren’t. I have “been there & done that”, spending a lot of time confessing my sins for forgiveness, and trying to “get right” with God so that my prayers wouldn’t be hindered.
Either way, you are a Christian, saved by faith in Christ as Savior. One believing they have to stay “right” with God, the other realizing that Jesus’ finished work made them eternally “right” with God.
The difference is the quality of that life, the condemnation & guilt of self-righteousness, or the peace & joy of the Holy Spirit as found in the finished work of Christ.
==============
Some believe that the above scenario, believed, creates a rampant move of the flesh, others believe the Spirit will never lead anyone to sin, or in sin, yet they understand that sin is a force, a power within their fleshly bodies that tries to deceive by the world the flesh/sin and the devil.
And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, who will never leave us nor forsake us.
gordon 2
Senior Member
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
One wrote recently in quote of Yeats. The poem ends
For nothing can be sole or whole
That has not been rent.
If when we quote or speak, the Bible, a poem, a work of literature, song...a movie, cartoon, comic book, or something birthed in us, there is an investment of self (in some form or fashion) to its verity...by its endorsement. Something of us is put in place to show it, elevate it above...single it out...in a sense, prop it up.
Even if we be clearly facetious or rhetorical something of self and motive is on the table for examination.
Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
Is not the first sentence a question of motives set in motion that, if so...are to be seen in light of what would be the sober answer to the second?
Yet a man or men ignorant of their own motives as moving unseen by them, (but known by another) if not caring to see the plainness of the second question may well have some response of "who are you to question my motives?" Or, "before I give answer...tell me, by whose authority do you have the power to even ask?"
How often this forum is rife with that question...sometimes frankly asked...often moving as unseen beneath so much said but always seen by another..."Then, who has the authority? Who can be believed if all say 'But I am speaking truly' After all, doesn't every man think that?"
Yes.
What then is "happy talk nonsense"...and what not?
Is the first quote happy talk nonsense?
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
And just as the faith of the Son of God teaches us through the Spirit what is is true from false did the man who wrote that...elevating it...by what authority did he, could he, speak? Or, as elsewhere rebuked, are we those who would always hold to a yes and no of things always double minded (?) as in "Oh, yes I lend myself to the endorsement of that as true (after all it's "In the Bible")...but no man can ever truly enter the second portion (or at least fully)...no man can really know it"
In "his day" the man who wrote that (this Giant of the faith...or so we may say) was probably no less accused of spouting happy talk nonsense. Or at least being so much amiss that he had in experience:
"at my first response no man stood with me"
and of so little consideration while in prison that few communicated with him.
Also writing to Timothy he felt the need to add "I lie not" when mentioning his calling as an apostle.
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie nota teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
He would not speak thus if this were not held in some question...this man that today (almost every christian) would easily...and seemingly most assuredly have no question as to his calling. After all..."He's (and his words) are in the Bible"
Now this is easily (probably too easily) inferred that some argument is being made against some right holding of the scriptures. God forbid. Just as some might think some argument is being made against Christ's Church in holding to the Spirit's sufficiency to all things in each living stone. God forbid...for the Church is all that is constituted of such...those learning through the Spirit of Christ's sufficiency. There can and is no despising of the scripture in Christ anymore than there can be a despising of His Church.
What then is only form...what is substance.
Each of us needs to know...and often easily say we want to (know).
Jesus said a very interesting thing (captivating, really) in response to the Jews who had some question in what appeared His lack of training.
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Paul said something not dissimilar in regards to certain matters that others may have had questions about.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
I love Striper's response to the accusation of speaking "happy talk nonsense".
None.
None at all.
You have to love that kind of response. My neighbors visited me often before covid--as JWs-. Their responses to "accusation " was ever " none" also. You have to love people like that. There is nothing else. They don't understand me spiritually and I don't understand them. Ships passing by. It is settled. I will never deny them their visits, yet my visits will never ever be. It is what it is. We are all on some kind of journey I suppose.
I should stop treating people like I threat myself. I always am in worry that my conscience is not clear, even inside of me Christ I suppose. It gets me in a loop that so and so's conscience and their consciousness in not 100%clear also. By my misfortunes- for them- I judge others fortunes as suspect-- illegitimate even. My ears hear the inner Christ differently. I suspect my ears, my conscience and never Christ.
The only thing that has worked for me to clear the air is the Church, not the bible, not Christ in me. I check my conscience and my consciousness against the Church, every member. This way of being for others I suppose I should forget. This logic of it for many is none, nil and not worth a response.
My Christ surrounds me, more than He is inside. In His fragrance I live and never far apart this way. I forget that we are not witnessed to in the same ways. I should stop treating people like I threat myself.
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gordon 2
Senior Member
At this point I suspect that the Church is not just a "gift". It is the only arbitrator between God and man. If bible study is profitable ( bible ministry) to works, then to study the Church is to judgement ( Church ministry), to clear conscience--profit.
The bible can be apart from the Church. But not vis-a-versa. Thomas Jefferson's bible bouncing inside my head, inside my profound spiritual being, is a room hid inside a house for a mistress. Or I'm the pencil and Jesus is the pencil sharpener and spiritual life is individual and the community, though important, is a secondary thought.
How about if the individual and the community ( our shared humanity) is shored up into a human being as one entity or one man, person, individual etc, and so being one both individual and communal you and I are ministered to at least on these two levels which in reality are one which is the ministry ( purpose) of the Church?
Today if you google the media world wide you find that the Church is active, an authority, respected, acceptable, in human conflicts possibly because the Church has a human ear and a human mouth. What is the Church doing in the conflict areas of the world today? might be a mindful question. What is the bible doing in the conflict areas of the world today? Does it come to mind to ask the question in this way?
Now Christ in me. Can I hear by myself, even if I decode the sounds with the bible by myself? It seems it was a livable judgement for Thomas Jefferson...
Where does God's word resound with the most empathy towards man, as Christ was empathetic to all?
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Where is that mouth at mostly? I think that we have decided that for one it is the head , the inner Christ put up to the mind, for the other it is the bible put up against hearts and minds and for another the Church put up against the heart and mind and big toe and for some it is all three ( the man of all seasons). But we all have our starting point, marching orders, basic doctrine real, imagined, even hidden from our very selves sometimes...
What is God's order? Perhaps it goes like this, though I in reality don't know yet: First God chose a people to be saved and not so much Moses. The Hebrews made it into the Promised Land, but not so much Moses. Perhaps as Christians we are more of a people than individuals, just as it was with Israel. But we name our children, individuals, Israel and so salvation is for the individual we think... when in fact God is ministering in usual manner for his usual purposes of getting peoples out of captivity and to salvation. Maybe...
Because the cannon is closed is God silent? When we say the word of God says, do we disembody God's word from God as if God has said all he needs to say this side of heaven? The Holy Spirit gives lectures: Are God's lips burnt and closed? What is the truth?
The bible can be apart from the Church. But not vis-a-versa. Thomas Jefferson's bible bouncing inside my head, inside my profound spiritual being, is a room hid inside a house for a mistress. Or I'm the pencil and Jesus is the pencil sharpener and spiritual life is individual and the community, though important, is a secondary thought.
How about if the individual and the community ( our shared humanity) is shored up into a human being as one entity or one man, person, individual etc, and so being one both individual and communal you and I are ministered to at least on these two levels which in reality are one which is the ministry ( purpose) of the Church?
Today if you google the media world wide you find that the Church is active, an authority, respected, acceptable, in human conflicts possibly because the Church has a human ear and a human mouth. What is the Church doing in the conflict areas of the world today? might be a mindful question. What is the bible doing in the conflict areas of the world today? Does it come to mind to ask the question in this way?
Now Christ in me. Can I hear by myself, even if I decode the sounds with the bible by myself? It seems it was a livable judgement for Thomas Jefferson...
Where does God's word resound with the most empathy towards man, as Christ was empathetic to all?
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Where is that mouth at mostly? I think that we have decided that for one it is the head , the inner Christ put up to the mind, for the other it is the bible put up against hearts and minds and for another the Church put up against the heart and mind and big toe and for some it is all three ( the man of all seasons). But we all have our starting point, marching orders, basic doctrine real, imagined, even hidden from our very selves sometimes...
What is God's order? Perhaps it goes like this, though I in reality don't know yet: First God chose a people to be saved and not so much Moses. The Hebrews made it into the Promised Land, but not so much Moses. Perhaps as Christians we are more of a people than individuals, just as it was with Israel. But we name our children, individuals, Israel and so salvation is for the individual we think... when in fact God is ministering in usual manner for his usual purposes of getting peoples out of captivity and to salvation. Maybe...
Because the cannon is closed is God silent? When we say the word of God says, do we disembody God's word from God as if God has said all he needs to say this side of heaven? The Holy Spirit gives lectures: Are God's lips burnt and closed? What is the truth?
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StriperAddict
Senior Member
Ans:
"Come to me, all who labor and are heavily laden and ...
I (Jesus) WILL give you rest."
Rest for the soul, trying to get "this" right,
Rest for the relentless search for a God who is always there amongst us, living in and thru us as we trust His final work on earth, on a cross.
Try this on for size, a small note from a brother in the body,
You cannot earn salvation by your good works. Salvation is by grace, through faith, apart from works. Many people will agree that that's true. But then in their very next breath they'll add that unless you have works, you're not saved. So which is it? Saved by grace, through faith, apart from works? Or saved by grace, through faith, apart from works, but you must have works?
If you do the math on that, it just doesn't add up. "Apart from works" is not equal to "but you must have works."
The works we do in Christ are not a condition of salvation. We were "created in Christ Jesus *for* good works (not 'because of' good works) which God prepared beforehand that we should walk *in* them." (Eph 2:10). That verse actually starts out by saying that we are "His workmanship." Elsewhere, Paul says that God began a good work in you (not you began a good work for God), and He is faithful to the end to complete the work (not you must be faithful to complete it).
It's good to know the difference in all this! Otherwise, people start trying to do works as a means of maintaining their salvation, instead of resting in God and His workmanship.
"Come to me, all who labor and are heavily laden and ...
I (Jesus) WILL give you rest."
Rest for the soul, trying to get "this" right,
Rest for the relentless search for a God who is always there amongst us, living in and thru us as we trust His final work on earth, on a cross.
Try this on for size, a small note from a brother in the body,
You cannot earn salvation by your good works. Salvation is by grace, through faith, apart from works. Many people will agree that that's true. But then in their very next breath they'll add that unless you have works, you're not saved. So which is it? Saved by grace, through faith, apart from works? Or saved by grace, through faith, apart from works, but you must have works?
If you do the math on that, it just doesn't add up. "Apart from works" is not equal to "but you must have works."
The works we do in Christ are not a condition of salvation. We were "created in Christ Jesus *for* good works (not 'because of' good works) which God prepared beforehand that we should walk *in* them." (Eph 2:10). That verse actually starts out by saying that we are "His workmanship." Elsewhere, Paul says that God began a good work in you (not you began a good work for God), and He is faithful to the end to complete the work (not you must be faithful to complete it).
It's good to know the difference in all this! Otherwise, people start trying to do works as a means of maintaining their salvation, instead of resting in God and His workmanship.
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