Cracks in the pottery

[StriperAddict]

Per the bible God's kids are jars of clay.
Ever fear cracks? Don't, what He poured in is being outwardly shown ... His inner Life gettin out!

Here's a take away - never fear failure or weakness. You trusting and being in dependence on Christ during your messes is of more relational value to those around you than any measure of behavioral perfection. And you're going to enjoy how your Lord brings HIS consolation and comfort in all the forms: no shame, no condemnation (in Christ is not a shifting place), plus other real folks who've walked there might just bring a kind word, understanding, even a knowing tear in their eyes.

Then those places of weakness and vulnerability are times of incredible fellowship, growth and healing ... as we together learn and lean into Christ as our Life, a source never to leave nor forsake.

Sometimes a crack or two in the jar is good, because grace is sufficient in weakness. And light gets shown thru the cracks ... His perfect presence of light and life within.

I'm down for that. What say you?

-------------------------
My FB post today.

 

[gordon 2]

Talking of weakness.

 

[gordon 2]

This wise woman^ is calling His children home to supper.




"The Next Step"

1. WHY WORRY ABOUT TOMORROW,
WHY WORRY IF YOUR STEPS ARE SLOW?
IF YOUR LIFE HAS BEEN SPENT FOR JESUS
YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH FARTHER TO GO

CHORUS:

FOR THE NEXT HAND YOU SHAKE MAY BE
THE HAND OF THE SAVIOR,
THE NEXT STEP YOU TAKE COULD BE ON
STREETS OF PUREST GOLD;
AND YOUR NEXT MEAL COULD BE THE MARRIAGE SUPPER,
AND THE NEXT TOUCH YOU FEEL,
HE COULD BE BLESSING YOUR SOUL

2. BE STRONG AND KEEP ON GOING,
DON'T BE ANGRY WHEN THINGS GO WRONG,
DON'T GIVE UP, FOR IT'S ALMOST OVER,
ALL SIGN'S ARE POINTING T'WARD HOME


REPEAT CHORUS:

WORDS AND MUSIC BY MR. JACK CAMPBELL

 

[gordon 2]

What say you.

What says me.

Quote: You trusting and being in dependence on Christ during your messes is of more relational value to those around you than any measure of behavioral perfection. And you're going to enjoy how your Lord brings HIS consolation and comfort in all the forms: no shame, no condemnation (in Christ is not a shifting place), plus other real folks who've walked there might just bring a kind word, understanding, even a knowing tear in their eyes. ( end Quote)

So let me get this... or help me get it.


If I sin today, say sexually, emotionally cheat on the wify with my secretary at the local hotel where a business function is going on, I will have no shame and am not condemned as morally it has no consequence for my spiritual life and plus other folk who do or have done this this will understand and they will not condemn me provided they are in Christ, nor will they worry that I have no shame. And this is because I trust and am dependent on Christ.

??? Is this what is said here?

Isn't this the same thing as saying that having slaves is a sin or morally inconsistent with the will of God, but being dependent on Christ and that the society I live in is dependent on slaves than I have no shame for owning them nor will I suffer spiritual condemnation, shame etc.


???? Is this correct or is my fearlessness that of a cracked pot?

 

[gordon 2]

Can you witness to me that you have sinned in the past and now know no shame for it and entertain no condemnation from anyone including God because you were dependent on Christ?

What exactly is this dependence ( for you in your walk) that rubs out shame and condemnation for the serious sins that were "messes" in your own life? Do you do something, or is believing something enough? Do you use scripture for this, and how do you go about it? What was/is this thing that gets you scot free? What were they if more than one item?

 

[StriperAddict]

We commit acts of sin because we have forgotten our identity in Christ, our purification.
We forget our purification because competition against truth comes to our will in thoughts brought on by temptation, the flesh (old patterns of thinking that don't bring life) and the world system dominated by evil.
If our rest in Christ's work is unsure, we can then choose sin as an act of the will, believing there is some measure of life coming from that drug, adultery or whatever.
More later, thanks for your thoughts/Q's.

 

[StriperAddict]

 

[j_seph]

Cracks in the pottery brought back to my rememberence this.
There was a young girl who would carry 2 clay pots, each attached to opposite ends of a stick across her shoulders. The one pot had a crack in it and as she would head home carrying water for their use, the one pot would always have less water than the other. She felt bad that she wasted water like this and this made her upset. She would fuss about the pot always leak and sometimes she would have to make extra trips because of this. She wished she had a new pot so as not to waste the water and have to work extra at times. Then one day she noticed as she went to to get extra water and feeling upset that on the side of the path where the pot leaked, there was greener grass than the other, that there were flowers coming up and blooming on just that side of the path. Sometimes there needs to be a crack and a little extra work done to bring up new life. I perfect pot would not let the water out and then neither side would benefit from a perfect pot.

 

[StriperAddict]

Can you witness to me that you have sinned in the past and now know no shame for it and entertain no condemnation from anyone including God because you were dependent on Christ?

This is a soul, or mind-will-emotion question. First, my emotions (which have no time reference) get stirred from past sins and memories that spring up. Like all of us, we have regretful decisions that bite us from time to time.
But we are not defined by those past sins to our Father. Jesus paid the penalty one time for past, present and our many future sins. Growing to believe that when the shame comes will bring peace. THIS is what depending on Christ and His finished sacrifice is for - taking away the sting of shame and rejoicing we are set free from sin and death.

What exactly is this dependence ( for you in your walk) that rubs out shame and condemnation for the serious sins that were "messes" in your own life? Do you do something, or is believing something enough? Do you use scripture for this, and how do you go about it? What was/is this thing that gets you scot free? What were they if more than one item?

As stated above, depending on Christ is a move of faith, not our works of self-righteousness to put a death blow to shame.

Yes, I often use God's word to help. Rom 6 says how shall we who have died to sin still live, or thrive, exist, IN SIN anymore? This attitude and belief leads me away from a sin focus to a Christ focus. THAT is depending on Jesus at the moment.

An example may be that I'm about to walk into what was just a heated argument with my brother, I would do well to ask the Lord, "Father, I know I am not prepared for this encounter, but I'm asking you to love thru me in this moment. Lord, where I've failed, help me ask for forgiveness from my brother, knowing you have already covered the wrong with me - but in this moment, let my bro and I be reconciled in our differences, even if they continue, so that in your compassion and by your peace this would be made right. Your will be done, amen"


Consider this from FB, Jeremy White (with my comments added)

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “I don’t condemn you. Now go and leave your life of sin.”

The religious legalist...the self-appointed sin-sheriff...will often jump on the fact that Jesus tells the woman to stop sinning.

What they conveniently forget is the order in which this happens. Jesus did not say, “Stop sinning and I won’t condemn you.” He offered freedom from condemnation BEFORE He said anything about the woman’s sin problem. (Christ in that one sentence AND order which He said it took away her shame)

Legalists always get this in the wrong order. Freedom from condemnation ALWAYS precedes freedom from life-dominating sin. In fact, the only people on the planet who are walking in true victory over the dominance of sin are those who understand that on their very worst day, they are still free from condemnation. Rest in that reality today and every day!
=============
(True dependence is a rest in His finished work. That WILL have a positive effect socially because the outcome of His Life and promise of NO condemnation is a permanent change from our saving faith, and experienced in dependence, trust, faith and rest.

We often by self-effort try to make up for our failings by doing good works rather than trusting God to empower and guide us.

Hope this helps. -Walt)

 

[StriperAddict]

Of Sin Consciousness

If Old Testament worshipers had the benefit of a once-for-all sacrifice, they would have no longer had consciousness of their sins:
”Otherwise, would [the sacrifices] not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?” —Hebrews 10:2

 

[gordon 2]

I must admit this is very confusing for me as it seems impossible for a "normal" human being because he is a Christian to feel no shame or guilt for sin-tresspass. It seems to be indicative that one can hurt others without one's person being marked negatively by the experience if that person is a Christian.

It seems contrary to the psychology of most people who suffer NOT from the illness of sociopathy or psychopathy.

It would also seem to explain to me why some individual Christians are ok with severe crimes because they are ordered or compelled to do them for some "greater good" or self-preservation and knowing that spiritually they are not condemned being that they are Christians while if another religious group does these same crimes it is inexcusable.

For example it is NOT shameful nor to be condemned for a Christian society to torture war prisoners if done so systematically ( state sanctioned) or for that society to collect-suject to itself foreign land and nations, but it is shameful and to be condemned if non-Christian nations or lesser Christian nations do so?

It seems impossible to me to understand your views as being biblical with a correct assessment, when the New Testament indicates that believer are to confess their sins to each other? Why the need for this? if there is no condemnation or shame? Why would someone confess that they sin to another individual if in the greater scheme of things it is without consequences to the integrity of an individual nor to the will of God in any degree.

I find it strange that the memory of "old" sins sometimes well up--- or that "emotions get stirred up for past sins"? It would seem to me that if God has forgotten them, then the individual "stirred up" might be due doubt that God had indeed forgotten them.

If Christians are not condemned nor subject to shame spiritually, why would revival be needed? Why was the reformation needed? Why are individual denied full memberships in Christian denominations for sin? Why are ministers removed for their offices for sin? If there is no shame or divine condemnation for personal sins why should the assembly condemn and shame those individuals?

Why is there a list of sins in the New Testament that bars Christians from the rewards to be inherited as believers-- and yet God does not condemn nor should they know shame?

I must admit this is confusing. But I suppose if it works for you and others I guess it is very good. Yet my experience of the conflicts between Christian sects who are bible based would indicate to me that your belief is not fixed to the truth of you view. Personally I must confess to you, that although not condemning you in any way to believe this, that your belief in the no shame, no condemnation is suspect.

Jesus may well not have condemned the woman at the well, a woman under the law, for like the individuals under the cross she "knew not what she did", but a Christian should simply because the perspective from the righteousness of God which is now intimate before a Christian and sin is glaring! It is a yes and no existence with no need of finding bible conceptions to stop one for chewing finger nails over sin.

But I thank you bros for you honest answer... it is indeed an eye opener on how a Christian can remedy the effects of sin for what they deem is sufficient from their reading of the bible alone.

I will be honest with you. What has made all the difference to me regards the forgiveness of sin has been when I have confessed my sin to the assembly of believers as the Church and that for me all shame and condemnation was removed from my makeup, not only did God forget my sins, He provided I forget them with no sense of condemnation also. And all this after many, many decades of study and scripture search, doctrine study etc. only with my confessing audibly to my peers in the body was I able to walk or race as a Christian with the boldness of a saint with doubtless authority and integrity within Christianity. Now this is what has "worked" for me... it was and is my revival.

Thanks again bros. In Christ with you always...

 

[j_seph]

I see it like this and believe it to be so. I have my sins from in the past, today, and I am sure tomorrow. It is so easy for the flesh to do these things because this flesh is weak. The soul wants to do good, it longs to do well but the flesh prevents that at times. When something bad comes to my mind that I done in the past that I have asked forgiveness for it is nothing more than the devil himself causing that. How or why one might ask. What good am I to spread Jesus word when I am wrestling around things I have done? This can turn into self pity and drag you away from the truth. Instead of letting that happen demand Satan get behind you in Jesus name. Jesus lives in our hearts not in out minds and the mind is a battle ground. So you will always remember the things you have done. If it was drugs you can let that drag you back down into the pig pen, feel worthless maybe even, feel you are useless for Christ. That is nothing more than what Satan would want. But then again you look at where you were, accept what you done and that it was not right. During that time you were not living for the Lord anyways. Take that trial you went through, carry it to those that need to hear it and use the past as your testimony to where Christ has brought you to from that. As he said, Jesus paid the price for past, present, and future sins. He cannot come back and do it over and over everytime we sin so there is a price to pay by us on this side for our sin. I can tell you of a preacher who ran from his calling to preach. Lord got tired of it and he ended up wrecking his car, totaling it our and ejected. Laying there on the ground his bible managed to be laying beside him. Every window was broken out except for the one that had a Christian fish logo on it.

@gordon 2
I looked up and read where you said

What has made all the difference to me regards the forgiveness of sin has been when I have confessed my sin to the assembly of believers as the Church and that for me all shame and condemnation was removed from my makeup, not only did God forget my sins, He provided I forget them with no sense of condemnation also

We are not required to confess our sins to man but to God. It is great if you feel lead to do such but that is not required. I do not need another person to forgive me of my sins only God unless I have sinned against someone then I need their forgiveness.

The things I have done through my life, even after being saved I do not see where I even deserve salvation. The places I have taken my Jesus after being saved, had I had done that to someone they probably still would not speak to me. I have let the past at times get me down and rolled around in it like the prodigal son. When I came to myself and went back to the father he was waiting there with open arms to clean me up. To the point at times I would question my salvation. He would take me back to little markers in my life and back to my Bethel where I met him at. There is a verse about trying the spirits.

 

[gordon 2]

I see it like this and believe it to be so. I have my sins from in the past, today, and I am sure tomorrow. It is so easy for the flesh to do these things because this flesh is weak. The soul wants to do good, it longs to do well but the flesh prevents that at times. When something bad comes to my mind that I done in the past that I have asked forgiveness for it is nothing more than the devil himself causing that. How or why one might ask. What good am I to spread Jesus word when I am wrestling around things I have done? This can turn into self pity and drag you away from the truth. Instead of letting that happen demand Satan get behind you in Jesus name. Jesus lives in our hearts not in out minds and the mind is a battle ground. So you will always remember the things you have done. If it was drugs you can let that drag you back down into the pig pen, feel worthless maybe even, feel you are useless for Christ. That is nothing more than what Satan would want. But then again you look at where you were, accept what you done and that it was not right. During that time you were not living for the Lord anyways. Take that trial you went through, carry it to those that need to hear it and use the past as your testimony to where Christ has brought you to from that. As he said, Jesus paid the price for past, present, and future sins. He cannot come back and do it over and over everytime we sin so there is a price to pay by us on this side for our sin. I can tell you of a preacher who ran from his calling to preach. Lord got tired of it and he ended up wrecking his car, totaling it our and ejected. Laying there on the ground his bible managed to be laying beside him. Every window was broken out except for the one that had a Christian fish logo on it.

@gordon 2
I looked up and read where you said

We are not required to confess our sins to man but to God. It is great if you feel lead to do such but that is not required. I do not need another person to forgive me of my sins only God unless I have sinned against someone then I need their forgiveness.

The things I have done through my life, even after being saved I do not see where I even deserve salvation. The places I have taken my Jesus after being saved, had I had done that to someone they probably still would not speak to me. I have let the past at times get me down and rolled around in it like the prodigal son. When I came to myself and went back to the father he was waiting there with open arms to clean me up. To the point at times I would question my salvation. He would take me back to little markers in my life and back to my Bethel where I met him at. There is a verse about trying the spirits.

I'm glad that works for you. It had not worked for me--- and I tried to do as you do and I tried to believe as you do. I have lived with crushing shame for a good part of my life due to sin that hurt many people and myself and which was counter especially to the promises and relationship I had with and before God.

It was only after I did as indicated that my shame was removed from me and was never back to oppress me. The pain and the shame was removed immediately, suddenly and completely so that it has never surfaced again, after a decade even, ever! Even believing as you do did not work.

Personally I don't think someone can go fully to God with a nap sack full of sin and be fully themselves and I understand that the Church is there to carry our issues with sin when we can't be totally present with God due to sin. But that is want I have come to understand and how I understand Paul for example regards ministry to sinners within the body of Christ.

But I understand that many don't understand or believe this... and that is fine. It seems like you, they know no condemnation or shame for belief alone. All I can say again is that had not and does not work for me. It is a bit of an eye opener for me how others know that their sins are forgiven.

For me it was that my shame was removed never to come up again-- that is to say the effect of my confession. And others claim the same results or same effect from belief alone.

If sexual sin is sin against the body and I commit to it, I cannot be fully bodily-materially present to my spouse nor totally spiritually present and i suspect that in the same way all other sins being outside the body I cannot be totally present spiritually to God and i need help outside of my God-me relationship to provide a balance. Paul says how it all works regards restoration and the role of the Church in it.


Thanks for sharing.

 

[j_seph]

That jumps out to me what you said right there "God-me relationship" It is a personal relationship. I cannot tell you you are wrong or right, that is between you and God.

To the Topic Cracks in the Pottery, don't let the cracks define you, but let what comes through the cracks show what God is capable of and can do.

 

[StriperAddict]

If forgiveness and Indwelling Life didn't change us at the core, and take away our guilt and shame, then it wouldn't be worth the blood that was spilt to offer it.

We've all done things that bring us shame, to our memories.
Is what you're saying Gordon that we must also have our behavior directed by such shame? Is guilt a proper motivator for Christian life? I think not.

Speak grace.
You were made for this.
It's in your godly nature to edify and encourage. Thats an identity and inheritance thing, free.
And it will lead to peaceful interactions, not always to those not knowing His love and grace, but that's His responsibility.

And also consider this for yourself and your hearers ...
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

Goals, bros, goals.

 

[StriperAddict]

Well said by Mr. Harris.
Enjoy ... !

 

[gordon 2]

If forgiveness and Indwelling Life didn't change us at the core, and take away our guilt and shame, then it wouldn't be worth the blood that was spilt to offer it.

We've all done things that bring us shame, to our memories.
Is what you're saying Gordon that we must also have our behavior directed by such shame? Is guilt a proper motivator for Christian life? I think not.

Speak grace.
You were made for this.
It's in your godly nature to edify and encourage. Thats an identity and inheritance thing, free.
And it will lead to peaceful interactions, not always to those not knowing His love and grace, but that's His responsibility.

And also consider this for yourself and your hearers ...
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

Goals, bros, goals.

I do believe that behavior is in part determined by shame or the possibility of shame. Otherwise we are psychopaths or sociopaths and grace and shame mean nothing.

I contend that it is possible for someone with eternal life to know shame for sin especially sin that has injured many people including the self and that it will condition their personality in the eternal life relationship. And that just because one can make an intellectual assessment out the sacrifice on the cross to reason out shame does not take out a hounding shame that is felt physically, emotionally and intellectually as well.

I don't value the notion that Jesus died for my sins past, present and future as a fait accompli. Forgiveness so that I can have eternal life which is forgiveness ( removal) of sin which is past sin and inherited sins of all generations since Adam I agree with. In this way we have access to a new life with God. Forgiveness for present sin now if I ask for forgiveness because God indwells me seems an odd condition since sin to my understanding distances one from God-- a distance which is assessed to be in regret, shame, guilt or worse no guilt, no shame and no regret. I would argue that the one on one relationship with God and the saint, includes the one on one relationship of the believer to the Church and that Jesus has made provision for this in the forgiveness of sin and Paul notes it when he says we are to carry each others burdens regards sin. I assume that if we are to carry each others burdens withing the institution of the Church, that there is a case here that our burdens cannot be carried to God (in all cases) regards sin ( for our shame) even for His indwelling us via the HS. Why do the saints need assembly? Why can we not forgo the Church? Why do we ask believing sinners to reduce their roles in authority for certain sins? Can they not for their eternal life still minister-- being their sins are said forgiven for their eternal life relationship or their relationship with the indwelling HS?

And finally to say that God has provided for the forgiveness of sin provided I ask for forgiveness in prayer seems not to counter to a sense common of many saints that "everything is permitted in love and war." While it is true that God has provided within the church context that in the future saints will continue to help each other with their sin burdens and that scripture reads specifically to confess to each other out sins--- it is not an automatic that sinners will not suffer temporally and spiritually from sin-- and that suffering is a distancing from God.


The crush of sin which makes man cower before his creator is a design of God. Because God removes all the effects of sin due to the sin of Adam and Eve does not remove the effect of sin for someone now with eternal life. It still makes people naked before God shameful for it. And it don't matter how you talk your way out of it, that your's is the emperors new cloths due grace--you will know thorns in your sides...and yes His grace has provided a way.

 

[StriperAddict]

Edited out a portion, wanted to emphasize the good points made above, with thanks.
-----

Working thru moments of our weakness when we walk in the flesh - so to have understanding with those we love ... an always thing!

I'll end this on one of my favorite horozontal-relational passages, with some paraphrase,

Confess your faults and shame to one another,
(Come let's reason together),
And pray for one another,
(Father knows best)
So that WE together may be healed.

Peace.