Help with Savage 111 in 2506

[creation's_cause]

If it was me, I would use a set of what used to be called "Redfield" bases and rings. They are now made by Leupold and called "standard" scope base. Center the cross hairs in the scope. Mount the scope. Forget boresighting. Zero it at 25 yds using the bases for your windage adjustment and scope for elevation. Should be close to 200 yard zero. Go to 200 yds and make final adjustments with scope.

This is what I may have to do if I don't get any help from Savage. The rifle is in the mail back to them, so now I play the waiting game and see what happens. Pretty sure the scope was good, but with a 1" tube and only 55moa of adjustment you just can not overcome the vertical and horizontal error I encountered with that rifle. The scope moved the point of impact as advertised, so I have no reason to believe it was a scope problem. No burrs on the muzzle. Tried two sets of the correct bases and rings. No cant and low rings. That put the belll of the scope just less than a 1/4" above the surface of the barrel. Everything on the rifle was like new. On this model of Savage (2010) Mod 111, there was a forward lug and screw that supposedly gives the stock a better lockup in an aluminum bedding, but it was not the accustock. We made multiple adjustments on the torque, trying to see if it effected accuracy from 25in/lbs. factory recommended, and lighter to almost 0in/lbs with not appreciable effect. Thanks for all the inputs. I hope to give an update after hearing from Savage... you guys rock!!

 

[Buckstop]

If the scope is verified and you're still that low at max elevation adjustment, the front ring is too high or back ring too low. That's probably either via reversed mounts or rings. Not to sound overly obvious, but the front ring has to be the lower of the two, elevation on top and windage on right. But sounds like you've verified that some steps back. Windage being maxed could happen with poorly placed mounting holes in the receiver but shouldn't affect elevation travel that severely. Good luck, sounds like you have a serious ghost there.

 

[Jester896]

so it is a round back action. I am curious what they would find. Was the scope mount sent with the rifle or was all of it removed?

 

[bighonkinjeep]

This is what I may have to do if I don't get any help from Savage. The rifle is in the mail back to them, so now I play the waiting game and see what happens. Pretty sure the scope was good, but with a 1" tube and only 55moa of adjustment you just can not overcome the vertical and horizontal error I encountered with that rifle. The scope moved the point of impact as advertised, so I have no reason to believe it was a scope problem. No burrs on the muzzle. Tried two sets of the correct bases and rings. No cant and low rings. That put the belll of the scope just less than a 1/4" above the surface of the barrel. Everything on the rifle was like new. On this model of Savage (2010) Mod 111, there was a forward lug and screw that supposedly gives the stock a better lockup in an aluminum bedding, but it was not the accustock. We made multiple adjustments on the torque, trying to see if it effected accuracy from 25in/lbs. factory recommended, and lighter to almost 0in/lbs with not appreciable effect. Thanks for all the inputs. I hope to give an update after hearing from Savage... you guys rock!!

Savage made multiple versions of the accustock. Sounds like yours had the original 1st version but it is indeed an accustock.The very first original designs was the one with the torque screw at the recoil lug as you describe. After accuracy issues, rifles losing zero after being removed from the stock and reinstalled etc they did away with the front lug clamp arrangement for the accustock. Many of those early accustocks the owners simply remove it and the function just like the 2nd version without the lug clamp. Later designs have added other features like beavertail fore ends on some law enforcement models ( discontinued after 2014 or so and replaced with " tactical" models) and some synthetic varmint models. Other changes included Karsten cheek pieces on Long range hunter models and after that "accufit" features, first LOP spacers then LOP and comb risers. They've sure srayed busy implementing what were once gunsmith only features into their factory rifle lineup. Lots of distributor exclusive models exist as well that werent even cataloged by Savage.
I may be wrong but I still feel its a scope or mounts issue and you probably should have tried another scope before sending it back. I know every now and then one slips through with improperly drilled and tapped holes but not very often. Please be sure and update us on their findings. As a rabid Savaholic Id sure be interested.
Good Luck
PS once you get it ironed out heres a grest article on torque tuning a Savage. https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

 

[bighonkinjeep]

Even after years of owning and working on firearms its easy to forget and get twisted in the brain and think youre moving the crosshairs in the direction you want them to go by turning toward the arrows. So just to be sure, You do realize the arrows on a Leupold indicate movement of the point of impact ( where the bullet hits) and not movement of the crosshairs in the direction of the arrows right? They're opposite.
I've been guilty of this myself and like to have lost my mind.. Felt pretty silly after a box of ammo and maxing one out only to realize later my mistake.
Good Luck

 

[Jester896]

there is an easy way to do that without looking
but you always move the crosshair to the bullet impact.
you can't change where the bullet hits...the rifle puts it in the same place...you change where you see it going by moving the crosshairs

 

[bighonkinjeep]

there is an easy way to do that without looking
but you always move the crosshair to the bullet impact.
you can't change where the bullet hits...the rifle puts it in the same place...you change where you see it going by moving the crosshairs

Thats what can be easily mixed up about it.
The arrows indicate to shift point of impact by moving the crosshairs the opposite direction of the arrow on the turrets.
If a fella hits right and the arrow says right and the turret is turned the direction of the arrow the bullet hole will be even further right because its actually moving the crosshairs further left. Someone might.assume sitting at the bench that right moves the crosshairs right instead of POI and may get flustered before figuring out he went the wrong way.
It wouldnt be the first to make that mistake and wont be the last.

 

[Buckstop]

Thats what can be easily mixed up about it.
The arrows indicate to shift point of impact by moving the crosshairs the opposite direction of the arrow on the turrets.
If a fella hits right and the arrow says right and the turret is turned the direction of the arrow the bullet hole will be even further right because its actually moving the crosshairs further left. Someone might.assume sitting at the bench that right moves the crosshairs right instead of POI and may get flustered before figuring out he went the wrong way.
It wouldnt be the first to make that mistake and wont be the last.

I shoot at a public range a good bit and see beginners struggle with this a lot. Have also seen a couple times where they complained about being out of adjustment clicks. Quick look at their mount job showed they had the elevation turret on the left and windage turret on top.

 

[creation's_cause]

Savage made multiple versions of the accustock. Sounds like yours had the original 1st version but it is indeed an accustock.The very first original designs was the one with the torque screw at the recoil lug as you describe. After accuracy issues, rifles losing zero after being removed from the stock and reinstalled etc they did away with the front lug clamp arrangement for the accustock. Many of those early accustocks the owners simply remove it and the function just like the 2nd version without the lug clamp. Later designs have added other features like beavertail fore ends on some law enforcement models ( discontinued after 2014 or so and replaced with " tactical" models) and some synthetic varmint models. Other changes included Karsten cheek pieces on Long range hunter models and after that "accufit" features, first LOP spacers then LOP and comb risers. They've sure srayed busy implementing what were once gunsmith only features into their factory rifle lineup. Lots of distributor exclusive models exist as well that werent even cataloged by Savage.
I may be wrong but I still feel its a scope or mounts issue and you probably should have tried another scope before sending it back. I know every now and then one slips through with improperly drilled and tapped holes but not very often. Please be sure and update us on their findings. As a rabid Savaholic Id sure be interested.
Good Luck
PS once you get it ironed out heres a grest article on torque tuning a Savage. https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

BHJ....Thank you for the history on the Savages. I appreciate it. Since it was a used rifle manufactured in 2010 I incorrectly assumed it was not marketed as an "accustock", even though it obviously had an aluminum bedding block built in. Appreciate your post immensely and will definitely provide an update if/when Savage gets back to me.

 

[creation's_cause]

there is an easy way to do that without looking
but you always move the crosshair to the bullet impact.
you can't change where the bullet hits...the rifle puts it in the same place...you change where you see it going by moving the crosshairs

Hey Jester...thanks for chiming in on this...I value your inputs as I have read a great number of your posts here, and recognize your expertise. And just for clarity, I understand reticle movement and how it relates to bullet impact. I do often have to slow down and think before I make too many adjustments while zeroing. If you really understand how bore sighting works, it makes the issue a whole lot simpler....imho. l did remove the bases & rings, before I sent the rifle back, but in my info to the tech staff, I described everything I had tried to include types and brand names of everything involved. Because the gun shot so far right and low and researching others who have experienced similar problems, I think it may be that the bore was drilled slightly off center. Only my guess. Hopefully I will get some answers in a couple (few) months or so. I am not thinking it will be a quick turn at Savage with all their new stuff out and how busy the customer service line was.

 

[Jester896]

thank you for the kind words @creation's_cause, but I promise I'm just a regular guy...no expertise here.

knowing the part number and brand of the items used would be very helpful in the evaluation of what the problem could be. I hope that it helps them narrow things down.

i don't have a machinist background, only what I have asked my buddy to explain to me when I watch things. I have watched him thread tenons and the such many times. I could see that a bore might not be centered in a blank when bored and rifled. When the outside radius was turned down the the final contour, it would seem to me that the barrel was indexed for center, prior to that, the same way it is prior to cutting tenon threads. it is hard for me to understand if that isn't the way it is done. This is just the way I believe it is done...maybe one of the gunsmiths here would straighten me out if that wasn't correct.

I would hope that someone didn't run over it, drop it from a stand or something and tweak it enough to shoot like that and not be able to notice the damage. Then, have the rifle sold on the market knowing. I am curious to know what Savage finds.

 

[creation's_cause]

Got a call from Savage. They said the rifle was put on their test range and failed, so they will be providing a new barrel, perhaps an accustock as well. Still have not heard anything about it shipping yet... more to follow. So far, so good. Pretty satisfied with Savage's response up to this point.

 

[Darkhorse]

Reminds me of a similar problem I had with a Model 700 years ago. Maxed out it was still shooting 3 feet high and left. I couldn't figure out what the problem was. Until I took off the rear sight that is. Back then rifles came with sights.
So I took off the rear sight because I needed more clearance for the scope. And when I looked at it I could see where either a center drill or tap drill had broken and marked up the barrel where it had run off center. I figured it was the centerdrill and the next set of holes it tried to drill came out off centered which meant the tap drill would follow it, seeing as it was a rounded surface the resulting holes would throw the scope out of adjustment.
I had never sent a gun back I always tried to fix one myself. So I made a brass shim to go under the front base I think (weaver mounts.) Shot the rifle and it was now in range of the scope adjustments. Then I took and filed the side of one of the bases and shot the rifle again. It too was now in range of the scope adjustments so I sighted it in.
I hunted with that rifle nearly 10 years until my cousin bought it and sent it back to remington who sent it back with a new barrel.
You never can tell about these things. Sending one back to the factory is the right thing to do.

 

[creation's_cause]

Hey guys...another update on my Savage 111....Chuck's in Warner Robins called me Friday to let me know my rifle was back. I got in there yesterday, Sat. Mar 1st, to pick it up. So basically a 3 month turn around from Savage, as I dropped the rifle off at Chuck's on 4 Dec to have it sent back. Acceptable IMHO, especially since it was over Christmas.
They put their standard weight (pretty light) barrel on it and the original stock I sent in. When I opened the box at Chuck's the bolt was in the rifle... thought that was odd? Other than getting a cheaper barrel (my original was a medium tapper w/satin finish) I can no complain, especially if it will shoot. Just thought Savage might upgrade a little, not down grade it
I will find out soon and provide a final update. Thanks again for your inputs and advice on this...all appreciated.

 

[Jester896]

are you saying it was a heavy sporter barrel and they and the finish of the barrel isn't the same as the receiver?

 

[creation's_cause]

Sorry for he slow response, been outside enjoying this weather. Yes, that is what I implied from what I wrote on here, but not what I should have written. To be accurate....I should have stated that: Savage replaced the receiver, bolt, and barrel with their standard weight, matt-finished barrel, receiver and bolt. It all matches. Still need to get to the range and shoot it. Been chasing crappie and blues at Sinclair. BTW, Blue Cat is delicious!

 

[Jester896]

yeah...that still shouldn't fly IMO. If it had a different barrel profile it should have been replaced with the same.
so they replaced the entire barrelled action and stamped it with your serial number....wow!

 

[fauxferret]

If you haven’t sent it back or if you have and still have the same issue. I would tell you to get into hand loading. Old customer had I think a 110 in 308 that just would not group. Sent back to savage twice no real improvement. It wasn’t until we hand loaded for it and checked the o-give did we get real improvement. Turned out it needed the bullet .003” off the lands to get it to shoot 1 MOA or less. Yes we could’ve sent it down the road or tried savage again. But the guy had sentimental attachment to the rifle. His friend left it to him before he passed so it was more of a way to continue his legacy.