"If it's not real, it's beneath you. If it is real, it's beyond you." - interesting video alert!

[ambush80]

Who would have ever thunk there was a video out there that explains it all by an Atheist lol

I don't think it was attempting to explain anything. It put forth facts and then made value judgements based on those facts.

 

[ambush80]

The beginning about the insane scale of the size of the universe blew me away. I can only imagine how much more evolved - how much more complex - a brain contained in one biological organism would have to be to function at a level needed to grasp the countless mysteries (mysteries to humans anyway) the universe holds. Any such organism would probably have zero similarities to humans. That said the sheer number of planets/moons/stars and the different configurations & interactions between them makes biological life (other than here on Earth of course) inevitable. For those who doubt that, we already have one example (Earth) proving that life is indeed possible. And if there is life advanced enough to ponder "where is everybody else?" they probably struggle with the fact that the insane distances between planets with intelligent life limits their ability to explore and/or communicate with other life forms.

But the ending is a hard truth - we are on our own. Humans have to help - or harm - other humans. There are about 4,000 versions of "wishful thinking" here on Earth in the form of religions worshipping different supernatural deities and not even ONE example proving that their existence is possible.
So to my way of thinking one globally accepted undeniable fact (humans currently exist) beats zero undeniable facts (supernatural deities exist) all day long. This situation could change tomorrow - but I wouldn't hold my breath.

You are at the same time asserting that we couldn't understand such a being and then making a claim about what that being must be. You're saying "I can't possibly know what it's like, but I know it's not like this".

 

[ambush80]

You’re not. It’s called “biased”. We all possess it.

Are you "biased" about gravity?

 

[ambush80]

I'm not an atheist. I believe there is a higher power. I just don't believe that it exists solely as described by any of the major religions. I think the universality of religion suggests that almost everybody of every culture believes in a higher power. They just adapt their interpretation of it to fit within their culture. Which is human nature. Maybe they are all partly right, I use the analogy of seven blind men each feeling one part of an elephant and trying to form a description of the whole beast from the one small part that they are in contact with. All of them know it exists, and can guess what they are contacting, but none of them have an understanding of the parts all put together as a whole being. And none of them believe that the part they are feeling is different from the part the others are feeling.

Just for the sake of discussion, what is your faculty by which you arrive at this conclusion?

The Piraha don't seem to possess this trait.

From what I understand, the only moral intuition that seems universal is the aversion to incest. As to the elephant analogy, it's one thing to say "This is some part of a strange, unknown animal" and another thing to say "This thing I'm touching is a mythical, magical being". With the limited information, the first assumption is understandable, the second, not so much.

 

[ambush80]

And IMHO there is nothing wrong with changing your mind or your beliefs about any subject to include hot button topics.
It just means that you were open to new or different ideas or data/information in the first place, which is (to me) very typical of a functioning brain. The very act of "learning" - even in other animals - involves changing our minds/brains to various degrees. And debate is a great tool for examining our own beliefs as we express our beliefs to others. By this I mean sometimes we all need to take a step back and listen to the words coming out of our mouths, or even the ideas in our heads. And when interacting with other humans, sometimes we need to imagine how our ideas & words expressing these ideas sound to our listeners. Are we on "auto pilot" and relying on familiar thought patterns without examining these patterns? It's hard to break out of this habit, because that is how human brains evolved. Much of our brain is on auto pilot because reinventing the wheel/ruminating on a thousand different subjects throughout our daily lives takes a lot of time & focus.

One (I have several) reason that I am an atheist is I started to really examine what I believe and why I believe it. This applies not just to religion, but to other areas in my life too. But one belief that really made a difference is also a question I asked myself: "why should religion get a pass on being examined in detail?" What makes religion so special that it gets treated differently than anything else I encounter in life?

I think to some degree this is true. See Jonathan Haidt's work on Moral Intuitions. Much of it makes good sense.

Because the basis of the belief is derived from personal revelation. There is no argument or disputation or even physical demonstration that can rebut it.

 

[ambush80]

I agree with that ^.
However I do understand how difficult it can be for believers to seriously examine their beliefs. Actually let me rephrase that -
I understand how difficult it can be for believers to examine their beliefs and give up those beliefs.
There isnt much else in life that offers you an awesome afterlife, seeing loved ones again, a personal "protector" etc. etc.

The only thing that would change a believer's mind is if they had a personal revelation (a feeling) that belief in something else was the REAL deal. Many people change faiths, they go from Christianity to Islam, Islam to Buddhism, buddhism to Paganism, and all other possible permutations. They weren't shown any evidence that caused their change of heart, they had a feeling; a revelation.

 

[ambush80]

For the folks that believe there is no "catch".
For us heathens the catch is having to believe all these seemingly wacky stories without solid evidence/proof.
And I dont hold a "god" responsible for the wacky stories, I hold organized religion (men) responsible.

I can list many other "Catches", or costs. Maybe I will.

 

[ambush80]

My first salvo in the role of Devil's advocate:

This video is actually a testament to how loving and amazing God is, that He would not only know and love me, personally, but also every ant that has come and gone from the beginning of time. The fact (and it is a fact, strictly speaking) that I can feel His presence and hear Him communicate with me is proof of His existence. How wondrously special must each and every life be that He would care for us individually. If I held a flame to an ant, it would know that something has entered it's reality that it must react to, and it does. If it had the capacity to reason, instead of acting on mere instinct, it might pick up on clues that this is different than a just a forest fire and that there is something purposefully interacting with it.

 

[Spotlite]

I don't think it was attempting to explain anything. It put forth facts and then made value judgements based on those facts.

It put forth some facts concerning mathematics and used that to support a biased opinion. The value of that is based on what you believe or don’t believe about God.

Mathematically - There are 31536000 seconds in a year.

A man that lived 90 years did love and have a valuable friendship with his dog that he only got to share milli seconds with.

If you look at the video from its view, the man didn’t even need or want the dog because it only can spend a short time span with him. What if he was only married to his wife a half of a day before she got wiped out?

But, I guess it’s what one wants the video to do.

 

[Spotlite]

Are you "biased" about gravity?

No. I know if I throw something up……it’ll fall down.

You believe in dark matter that you can’t see or feel. But you believe it’s there because science tells you it’s there. They can’t show it to you. They explain why they believe it’s there.

For you - Gods not there because you can’t see or feel Him. I can’t show Him to you, I can explain why I think He’s there……but…….

 

[WaltL1]

No. I know if I throw something up……it’ll fall down.

You believe in dark matter that you can’t see or feel. But you believe it’s there because science tells you it’s there. They can’t show it to you. They explain why they believe it’s there.

For you - Gods not there because you can’t see or feel Him. I can’t show Him to you, I can explain why I think He’s there……but…….

You really gotta quit being so reasonable
We need you to start throwing in some "you're going to he11" and "you guys think you are gods" or some such so we can
Liven the place up a bit.

 

[WaltL1]

I can list many other "Catches", or costs. Maybe I will.

That might be interesting.
I wonder if we (A/As) would all agree on catches/costs or would some of us dismiss some things that others dont/cant.

 

[bullethead]

Who would have ever thunk there was a video out there that explains it all by an Atheist lol

In his defense, there were too many books out there that explains it all by Theists so he went with a more modern approach.

 

[ambush80]

It put forth some facts concerning mathematics and used that to support a biased opinion. The value of that is based on what you believe or don’t believe about God.

Mathematically - There are 31536000 seconds in a year.

A man that lived 90 years did love and have a valuable friendship with his dog that he only got to share milli seconds with.

If you look at the video from its view, the man didn’t even need or want the dog because it only can spend a short time span with him. What if he was only married to his wife a half of a day before she got wiped out?

But, I guess it’s what one wants the video to do.

That's the complete opposite of what he said at the end. Did you watch it to the end? He said value this little blip you got and don't waste it on stuff that doesn't matter. Love the here and now and try to help people. I don't think you watched the whole thing to the end. Be honest.

 

[ambush80]

No. I know if I throw something up……it’ll fall down.

You believe in dark matter that you can’t see or feel. But you believe it’s there because science tells you it’s there. They can’t show it to you. They explain why they believe it’s there.

For you - Gods not there because you can’t see or feel Him. I can’t show Him to you, I can explain why I think He’s there……but…….

I don't believe in Dark Matter. I understand it as a mathematical possibility. I probably won't be able to understand the math that predicts most of the theoretical physics, but I know that my cell phone works and that even the most advanced mathematicians don't completely know why it does. I have said many times that I believe that the things that I don't, can't, or will ever know, could contain any and all gods, even ones who care about foreskins.

 

[ambush80]

You really gotta quit being so reasonable
We need you to start throwing in some "you're going to he11" and "you guys think you are gods" or some such so we can
Liven the place up a bit.

I'll do it, Walt. Attack my post in italics.

 

[bullethead]

My first salvo in the role of Devil's advocate:

This video is actually a testament to how loving and amazing God is, that He would not only know and love me, personally, but also every ant that has come and gone from the beginning of time. The fact (and it is a fact, strictly speaking) that I can feel His presence and hear Him communicate with me is proof of His existence. How wondrous special must each and every life be that He would care for us individually. If I held a flame to an ant, it would know that something has entered it's reality that it must react to, and it does. If it had the capacity to reason, instead of acting on mere instinct, it might pick up on clues that this is different than a just a forest fire and that there is something purposefully interacting with it.

I can accept that explanation if believers would acknowledge and accept the same explanation from other believers, but of different gods.

I picture a huge banquet hall with individual tables. The tables all have name cards of different gods on them and as believers of each particular god arrive they sit at the tables marked for the god(s) they believe in. Each table can gaze upon the other tables and filled seats but the conversation at each table is how ridiculous the beliefs, actions, rituals and stories are of everyone else not at their table while another table is saying the same thing about them and their table. Every single one is giving credit to their own god for the exact same things that they all enjoy while pointing out how preposterous the idea of the same credit going somewhere else.

 

[ambush80]

It put forth some facts concerning mathematics and used that to support a biased opinion. The value of that is based on what you believe or don’t believe about God.

Mathematically - There are 31536000 seconds in a year.

A man that lived 90 years did love and have a valuable friendship with his dog that he only got to share milli seconds with.

If you look at the video from its view, the man didn’t even need or want the dog because it only can spend a short time span with him. What if he was only married to his wife a half of a day before she got wiped out?

But, I guess it’s what one wants the video to do.

The only opinion that I can fault the video maker with is that he claims that "We could never possibly understand God" which is actually a claim about understanding God.

Round two of my Devil's Advocacy:

I could communicate with an ant in a way that it would understand. I could use pheromones and build a robot ant that would fool all the other ants. It might even try to mate with my representative robot ant. We could have as deep a relationship as an ant could have. The Christian god sending down His "son" (or a human representative) could perform the same function.

 

[ambush80]

I can accept that explanation if believers would acknowledge and accept the same explanation from other believers, but of different gods.

I picture a huge banquet hall with individual tables. The tables all have name cards of different gods on them and as believers of each particular god arrive they sit at the tables marked for the god(s) they believe in. Each table can gaze upon the other tables and filled seats but the conversation at each table is how ridiculous the beliefs, actions, rituals and stories are of everyone else not at their table while another table is saying the same thing about them and their table. Every single one is giving credit to their own god for the exact same things that they all enjoy while pointing out how preposterous the idea of the same credit going somewhere else.

What would that accomplish to you if they were co-mingled? If we replaced god place cards with football team place cards, you wouldn't have the same adverse reaction. You would understand that they all have their teams which they are loyal to for their own reasons, they may even admire some of the other teams and could break bread with them, but they all understand that what they have in common is that they're playing the same game.

 

[ambush80]

Just for the sake of discussion, what is your faculty by which you arrive at this conclusion?

The Piraha don't seem to possess this trait.

From what I understand, the only moral intuition that seems universal is the aversion to incest. As to the elephant analogy, it's one thing to say "This is some part of a strange, unknown animal" and another thing to say "This thing I'm touching is a mythical, magical being". With the limited information, the first assumption is understandable, the second, not so much.

Dang, guys? Do I have to argue with myself to have any fun?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology that we don't understand is indistinguishable from magic" -- Arthur C. Clarke

If the "elephant" in this parable is some kind of unknown technology, it would make complete sense to call it magic. If a being came and was able to reanimate a corpse, but was unable to explain to us how it did it because either we lack the mental capacity to understand the "language" required to describe what it did, or our "wet ware", made of meat, is incapable of deciphering the phenomena; like showing an ant a Bic lighter, calling it magic might be the best we could do. We might even call that being a God.