"If it's not real, it's beneath you. If it is real, it's beyond you." - interesting video alert!

[Spotlite]

That's the complete opposite of what he said at the end. Did you watch it to the end? He said value this little blip you got and don't waste it on stuff that doesn't matter. Love the here and now and try to help people. I don't think you watched the whole thing to the end. Be honest.

Yes but he did make the analogy that god doesn’t need or want you using the small amount of time we are here.

 

[bullethead]

What would that accomplish to you if they were co-mingled? If we replaced god place cards with football team place cards, you wouldn't have the same adverse reaction. You would understand that they all have their teams which they are loyal to for their own reasons, they may even admire some of the other teams and could break bread with them, but they all understand that what they have in common is that they're playing the same game.

It isn't a me thing. It is a them thing.

When gods are involved it's just about wearing the jerseys and putting the #1 Fan license plate on the front of the vehicle.
The players and the games are blacked out. Nobody can watch. There are no pre or post game interviews. Nobody is signing autographs or doing meet and greets.They just pretend to know the players through the programs which all say that each team is the best.

 

[Spotlite]

In his defense, there were too many books out there that explains it all by Theists so he went with a more modern approach.

Yes. I’ll give credit where credit is due. He knows why he believes / not believes and not just blabbering out filler words.

 

[oldfella1962]

Great video. Thanks for sharing. It made me want to look at more of his content. I'm gonna watch it again, bit by bit, and then play Devil's advocate and take the theist side, and offer the best rebuttals of the assertions put forth in the video; not only for amusement, but also to test my own beliefs.

Glad you liked it. The guy has some pretty logical & solid content.

 

[oldfella1962]

Just for the sake of discussion, what is your faculty by which you arrive at this conclusion?

The Piraha don't seem to possess this trait.

From what I understand, the only moral intuition that seems universal is the aversion to incest. As to the elephant analogy, it's one thing to say "This is some part of a strange, unknown animal" and another thing to say "This thing I'm touching is a mythical, magical being". With the limited information, the first assumption is understandable, the second, not so much.

An aversion to incest? Funny you should mention that - the Bible doesn't seem to have a problem with it, considering Adam & Eve, Noah's family, Lot and his daughters, and probably more examples of it. Just saying.

 

[oldfella1962]

The only thing that would change a believer's mind is if they had a personal revelation (a feeling) that belief in something else was the REAL deal. Many people change faiths, they go from Christianity to Islam, Islam to Buddhism, buddhism to Paganism, and all other possible permutations. They weren't shown any evidence that caused their change of heart, they had a feeling; a revelation.

That sounds to me like some people are not following a god, they are following the feeling of following a god. For them it's not unlike falling in love, or the thrill of getting married - they are really "in love" with the feeling they get from the process/event. Who they are in love with is an incidental, secondary concern.

 

[oldfella1962]

No. I know if I throw something up……it’ll fall down.

You believe in dark matter that you can’t see or feel. But you believe it’s there because science tells you it’s there. They can’t show it to you. They explain why they believe it’s there.

For you - Gods not there because you can’t see or feel Him. I can’t show Him to you, I can explain why I think He’s there……but…….

To me these are not the same thing. Scientists from all across the world are looking at the same data as the other scientists, and the scientists that do come to the same - or a similar - conclusion about dark matter all agree on what dark matter is. There are not thousands of different versions of dark matter - but there are thousands of different versions of a "god" that people worship/follow/believe in depending on which god fills that "god shaped hole" in their lives.

 

[ambush80]

Yes but he did make the analogy that god doesn’t need or want you using the small amount of time we are here.

Again, I don't like that he said "We can't know what God is like, but if He's real, He would be like 'this'".

Make the best of your time here and now by loving God and following His example (this applies to any God), but always keep in mind the 'Long Game' is about what happens to your eternal soul.

 

[ambush80]

That sounds to me like some people are not following a god, they are following the feeling of following a god. For them it's not unlike falling in love, or the thrill of getting married - they are really "in love" with the feeling they get from the process/event. Who they are in love with is an incidental, secondary concern.

If you fell in love with something you couldn't see or touch, then the feeling would be the evidence that the thing is real.

 

[ambush80]

To me these are not the same thing. Scientists from all across the world are looking at the same data as the other scientists, and the scientists that do come to the same - or a similar - conclusion about dark matter all agree on what dark matter is. There are not thousands of different versions of dark matter - but there are thousands of different versions of a "god" that people worship/follow/believe in depending on which god fills that "god shaped hole" in their lives.

But like theoretical physicists, they disagree on many details about the nature of dark matter, or Multi verse, or Cosmic Inflation, or Quantum Mechanics, but many of them agree that they exist in some form or another. The details are less important than the underlying belief.

 

[ambush80]

An aversion to incest? Funny you should mention that - the Bible doesn't seem to have a problem with it, considering Adam & Eve, Noah's family, Lot and his daughters, and probably more examples of it. Just saying.

The lesson to be learned about Lott and his daughters is that the Human spirit is indefatigable. The girls thought that the world had ended, so they took it upon themselves to re-populate it, all with the glory of God in mind. Some situations call for an overriding of a commandment. As Dr. William Lane Craig said (paraphrased), "The righteous killing of babies is allowed if it's part of God's plan. And the babies in the flood went straight to Heaven without suffering through a whole lifetime. It was a blessing".

 

[ambush80]

That might be interesting.
I wonder if we (A/As) would all agree on catches/costs or would some of us dismiss some things that others dont/cant.

My short list would go like this:

- The willingness to believe in things with only personal revelation as evidence opens the door to believing many other things of a similar nature. People who are prone to believe in Bigfoot are prone to believing in ghosts, ESP, flying saucers, conspiracy theories, etc.. It's promotes a way of thinking, standard of evidence, and method of analysis that's not only irrefutable, but subject to the individual believer's state of mind.

- It's divisive and has often been used historically to justify horrific acts.

- It distracts from and discourages the pursuit of knowledge. I've seen this used to admonish people who pursue science or philosophy, who are sometimes dismissed as being "worldly" or "highfalutin":

Mark 8:36-38​

King James Version​

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?​

​

What's on your list, Walt?

 

[WaltL1]

If you fell in love with something you couldn't see or touch, then the feeling would be the evidence that the thing is real.

I admittedly have a less than expansive mind, but thats ^ pretty darn profound to me.
Did you just think that up?

 

[ambush80]

I admittedly have a less than expansive mind, but thats ^ pretty darn profound to me.
Did you just think that up?

I can't recall having heard or read it anywhere. I think I made it up.

 

[bullethead]

If you fell in love with something you couldn't see or touch, then the feeling would be the evidence that the thing is real.

That would still subjective evidence that is exclusive to an individual. Meaningless to others because it carries no weight and it has no worth to anyone else.

It is romantic when someone says that something is real because they feel it. There are always others who say that they have similar feelings and it is all the proof anyone needs to know something is real.
When that feeling tells one of the individuals to stab a clergyman at the altar, drown kids in the tub, assassinate leaders etc etc etc, it isn't so romantic anymore and the "real" factor is quickly dismissed with the individual being cast out of the club. It's acceptable proof to the like minded until someone's feeling varies.

 

[ambush80]

I admittedly have a less than expansive mind, but thats ^ pretty darn profound to me.
Did you just think that up?

For comparison, Many people claim that a racism has occurred, their evidence being that they "felt it". It's irrefutable.

 

[ambush80]

That would still subjective evidence that is exclusive to an individual. Meaningless to others because it carries no weight and it has no worth to anyone else.

It is romantic when someone says that something is real because they feel it. There are always others who say that they have similar feelings and it is all the proof anyone needs to know something is real.
When that feeling tells one of the individuals to stab a clergyman at the altar, drown kids in the tub, assassinate leaders etc etc etc, it isn't so romantic anymore and the "real" factor is quickly dismissed with the individual being cast out of the club. It's acceptable proof to the like minded until someone's feeling varies.

Well, duh.

Tell me the love I feel for my wife isn't real. Many people have the same experience. Tell them it's not real. How many times would have the Starship Enterprise, or the whole world been destroyed if Captain Kirk hadn't followed his feelings and listened to Spock's "reasoning"?

 

[bullethead]

Well, duh.

Tell me the love I feel for my wife isn't real. Many people have the same experience. Tell them it's not real.

Yep. Real for you with your wife. Real for me with my wife. Real for the guy who married his cyber skin, anatomically correct "living" doll. Real for the guy who is sending money to his fiancee he only knows through the internet.
It is as if Real might have levels of realness.

 

[WaltL1]

My short list would go like this:

- The willingness to believe in things with only personal revelation as evidence opens the door to believing many other things of a similar nature. People who are prone to believe in Bigfoot are prone to believing in ghosts, ESP, flying saucers, conspiracy theories, etc.. It's promotes a way of thinking, standard of evidence, and method of analysis that's not only irrefutable, but subject to the individual believer's state of mind.

- It's divisive and has often been used historically to justify horrific acts.

- It distracts from and discourages the pursuit of knowledge. I've seen this used to admonish people who pursue science or philosophy, who are sometimes dismissed as being "worldly" or "highfalutin":

Mark 8:36-38​

King James Version​

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?​

​

What's on your list, Walt?

I'll have to think a bit about whats on my list but I'll address your short list above.

- The willingness to believe in things with only personal revelation as evidence opens the door to believing many other things of a similar nature. People who are prone to believe in Bigfoot are prone to believing in ghosts, ESP, flying saucers, conspiracy theories, etc.. It's promotes a way of thinking, standard of evidence, and method of analysis that's not only irrefutable, but subject to the individual believer's state of mind.

For me, much of that falls under "different strokes for different folks".
Im actually glad there are folks on the planet who believe in seemingly wacky or different things even if it goes against the logical/scientific/ etc
methods. 98% of the time its harmless. And its their life and if they are happy then more power to them.
Its that other 2% of the time that poses a danger.

- It's divisive and has often been used historically to justify horrific acts.

No question there. I would also add in some ways encourages/promotes those acts.

- It distracts from and discourages the pursuit of knowledge. I've seen this used to admonish people who pursue science or philosophy, who are sometimes dismissed as being "worldly" or "highfalutin":

Hmmm... I would agree this was a much bigger issue years ago. Probably set back the pursuit of science/knowledge for a number of years. I'm not convinced its a big issue anymore. A few speed bumps here and there but science has learned to go around them.

Oh I thought of 1 or 2 for my short list. Its pretty basic.
The hypocrisy.
I hate hypocrisy.
As a Christian, there came a point where I suddenly realized I was surrounded by it. From whats in the Bible, to alot of Christians to.....
Its what started my journey to try to examine my beliefs from a different angle.
Another is how it can make an otherwise "moral"/thinking person just simply accept certain atrocious things that they would never accept under a different circumstance. Maybe that would fall under the hypocrisy thing.
I know its a tired subject but for example the story of The Flood.
Nearly complete Genocide.
Totally unacceptable.
What were we taught? They, all of them, kids, babies, fetuses, women, faithful, not faithful.................... they all deserved it and its just fine because "God" did it.

Im still thinking....

 

[oldfella1962]

Again, I don't like that he said "We can't know what God is like, but if He's real, He would be like 'this'".

Make the best of your time here and now by loving God and following His example (this applies to any God), but always keep in mind the 'Long Game' is about what happens to your eternal soul.

His opinion of what "god" would be like is - of - course just an opinion.
But considering there are thousands of religions on the planet, nobody really knows what god would be like if a god even existed. It is not likely that god can be thousands of different things at the same time to thousands of religions. True the Bible might give an indication, but all religions have holy books. And along those same lines, religions vary on what happens to our "eternal soul" if that even exists.
Personally, I can't envision any god that would torture people for eternity because they were not convinced of their existence - especially in 2024 CE when have a process for determining how things really function on Earth, and a very basic/incomplete understanding of the tiny fraction of the cosmos that we have explored.