redlevel
Senior Member
There was some discussion about this in another thread. One poster opined that +p in another members Model 10-5 was more than the gun "could possibly withstand."
I alluded to a 1000 +p round test of a S&W Model 12, an alloy framed K-frame. Here is a copy/paste of the results and a link to the entire thread. It is a very educational thread, running about five pages.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/79395-p-through-model-12-test-done.html
_______________________________________
Well, it’s done. I’ve successfully fired 1,022 rounds of +P .38 special through my M12-2 without blowing it, or me, up. In fact, it has been my experience that shooting +P through an M12 is more detrimental to the shooter then the M12. The test took a little over six months and required nine shooting sessions. Nine different types of +P ammo were used. Here’s a summary of cumulative round count by ammo type.
All rounds are +P unless otherwise noted:
Winchester 110 gr JHP – 35
Federal 125 gr Nyclad HP – 36
Georgia Arms 158 gr LSWCHP – 101
Winchester 125 gr JHP – 200
Remington/UMC 125 gr JHP – 200
Speer/Lawman 158 gr TMJ – 300
Speer LE 135 gr GDHP – 50
CCI Blazer 125 gr TMJ – 50
Federal Classic 125 gr JHP – 50
--------------------------------------------------
Total = 1022
For more details, check out The Log on page 1, second entry.
Also, I was asked after the 72nd round to “mike” the frame window and measure the B/C gap. Here’s the measurements from 1 SEP 07:
Horizontal (TOP): 1.818”
Horizontal (BOT): 1.818” (one side measured .001-.002” less)
Vertical (F): 1.477”
Vertical (B): 1.477” (one side measured .001” less)
B/C gap: 0.007” (I could get the .008” feeler in if I pressed the cylinder back).
And here are the measurements 950 +P rounds later.
Horizontal (TOP): 1.817”
Horizontal (BOT): 1.817”
Vertical (F): 1.479”
Vertical (B): 1.478”
B/C gap: Same as before, 0.007” (I could get the .008” feeler in if I pressed the cylinder back).
While this test can be considered a “success,” I want you all to know that in the future, my model 12s will NOT be firing +P ammo. While I’m confident the M12s can handle it, the only reason I would want to use +P ammo is in a self defense gun. My current armory has plenty of factory-blessed +P rated revolvers that I would rather carry then any of my cherished M12s.
There you go….enjoy!!!!
__________________________________________
Regarding S&W's recommendations: Twenty-five-ought-six quoted the post in the S&W forum stating that only guns manufactured after 1996 were Ok for +p according to an email response. I have long heard, and think I could find a chart put out by S&W some years back, that S&W said any Model-numbered gun, that is, guns manufactured after 1957, was OK with +p. Here is a quote from another post in the same thread:
____________________________________________
FYI- March '76 Rifleman, in response to the NRA's query, the factory replied-
"Smith and Wesson .38 Special firearms identifiable by a model number (for example, "Model 36")which is stamped in the cylinder yoke cut, are designed to fire all brands of commercially manufactured .38 Special cartridges, including those which carry the +P designation. However,the service life of any aluminum alloy frame revolver, even one manufactured to Smith and Wesson's quality standards, may be adversely affected by frequent use of +P cartridges. Accordingly, Smith and Wesson does not recommend +P cartridges be used in such guns."
Also please note, the +P designation was adopted in early '74.
Good luck with the test!
___________________________________________
Now, I did not hunt up a copy of the March 1976 American Rifleman, but I guess it would be easy enough to do. I believe that information to be correct.
I have fired about 400 rounds of the Speer Lawman TMJ 158 grain +p, mostly in a Ruger .38 special, and probably 150 rounds in a S&W Model 36. It recoils much like a squib load in the heavy Ruger, and it isn't unpleasant at all in the Chiefs Special. I would not want to fire much of it in the 442-2 I just bought my daughter. I think it would be rather unpleasant in the airweight. I guess I have fired at least another 300 rounds of various +p ammo in the Model 36 over the years (Remington Golden Sabre, PMC Starfire, etc.),and the gun is none the worse for wear. None of the +p rounds in the little gun were unpleasant, except the Super Vels I fired in it in 1973, just after I bought the gun. (I am not particularly recoil sensitive, but I don't particularly like it, either. I don't like to shoot my Model 19 with full house .357 loads.)
I still have a few boxes and pieces of boxes of various +p around. When I shoot it up, I won't be buying any more of it, mainly because I don't want to pay 75 cents to a dollar each for gimmick ammo. I don't really subscribe to the light bullet/high velocity theory in handgun ammo, especially when we are talking about 950-1000 fps max as "high" velocity. I have shot enough feral dogs, armadillos, feral cats, and even finished off enough deer to realize that a 148 grain wc at 950 fps from a 4" barrel is at least as good as and probably better than a 125 grain jacketed hp at the same velocity that probably will not expand anyhow. That load, by the way, is from the Speer #9 Manual, published in 1974. Using Unique powder, I started about .5 grains below the published maximum and went to within .1 grain of the maximum, without any signs of high pressure in any of my .38s. I load my practice/target loads with 2.9 grains of Bullseye, an old standard for .38 special. I differentiate between the two loads by crimping the target load flush with the case mouth, and crimping the "field" load in the crimping groove, leaving a little of the bullet extended from the case.
I still say that fishinjunkie can shoot +p in his fine Model 10-5 'till the cows come home without suffering any more than normal wear. If a steel framed K-frame won't stand up to nearly unlimited amounts of 125/950 ammo, then there just ain't much to it.
I alluded to a 1000 +p round test of a S&W Model 12, an alloy framed K-frame. Here is a copy/paste of the results and a link to the entire thread. It is a very educational thread, running about five pages.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/79395-p-through-model-12-test-done.html
_______________________________________
Well, it’s done. I’ve successfully fired 1,022 rounds of +P .38 special through my M12-2 without blowing it, or me, up. In fact, it has been my experience that shooting +P through an M12 is more detrimental to the shooter then the M12. The test took a little over six months and required nine shooting sessions. Nine different types of +P ammo were used. Here’s a summary of cumulative round count by ammo type.
All rounds are +P unless otherwise noted:
Winchester 110 gr JHP – 35
Federal 125 gr Nyclad HP – 36
Georgia Arms 158 gr LSWCHP – 101
Winchester 125 gr JHP – 200
Remington/UMC 125 gr JHP – 200
Speer/Lawman 158 gr TMJ – 300
Speer LE 135 gr GDHP – 50
CCI Blazer 125 gr TMJ – 50
Federal Classic 125 gr JHP – 50
--------------------------------------------------
Total = 1022
For more details, check out The Log on page 1, second entry.
Also, I was asked after the 72nd round to “mike” the frame window and measure the B/C gap. Here’s the measurements from 1 SEP 07:
Horizontal (TOP): 1.818”
Horizontal (BOT): 1.818” (one side measured .001-.002” less)
Vertical (F): 1.477”
Vertical (B): 1.477” (one side measured .001” less)
B/C gap: 0.007” (I could get the .008” feeler in if I pressed the cylinder back).
And here are the measurements 950 +P rounds later.
Horizontal (TOP): 1.817”
Horizontal (BOT): 1.817”
Vertical (F): 1.479”
Vertical (B): 1.478”
B/C gap: Same as before, 0.007” (I could get the .008” feeler in if I pressed the cylinder back).
While this test can be considered a “success,” I want you all to know that in the future, my model 12s will NOT be firing +P ammo. While I’m confident the M12s can handle it, the only reason I would want to use +P ammo is in a self defense gun. My current armory has plenty of factory-blessed +P rated revolvers that I would rather carry then any of my cherished M12s.
There you go….enjoy!!!!
__________________________________________
Regarding S&W's recommendations: Twenty-five-ought-six quoted the post in the S&W forum stating that only guns manufactured after 1996 were Ok for +p according to an email response. I have long heard, and think I could find a chart put out by S&W some years back, that S&W said any Model-numbered gun, that is, guns manufactured after 1957, was OK with +p. Here is a quote from another post in the same thread:
____________________________________________
FYI- March '76 Rifleman, in response to the NRA's query, the factory replied-
"Smith and Wesson .38 Special firearms identifiable by a model number (for example, "Model 36")which is stamped in the cylinder yoke cut, are designed to fire all brands of commercially manufactured .38 Special cartridges, including those which carry the +P designation. However,the service life of any aluminum alloy frame revolver, even one manufactured to Smith and Wesson's quality standards, may be adversely affected by frequent use of +P cartridges. Accordingly, Smith and Wesson does not recommend +P cartridges be used in such guns."
Also please note, the +P designation was adopted in early '74.
Good luck with the test!
___________________________________________
Now, I did not hunt up a copy of the March 1976 American Rifleman, but I guess it would be easy enough to do. I believe that information to be correct.
I have fired about 400 rounds of the Speer Lawman TMJ 158 grain +p, mostly in a Ruger .38 special, and probably 150 rounds in a S&W Model 36. It recoils much like a squib load in the heavy Ruger, and it isn't unpleasant at all in the Chiefs Special. I would not want to fire much of it in the 442-2 I just bought my daughter. I think it would be rather unpleasant in the airweight. I guess I have fired at least another 300 rounds of various +p ammo in the Model 36 over the years (Remington Golden Sabre, PMC Starfire, etc.),and the gun is none the worse for wear. None of the +p rounds in the little gun were unpleasant, except the Super Vels I fired in it in 1973, just after I bought the gun. (I am not particularly recoil sensitive, but I don't particularly like it, either. I don't like to shoot my Model 19 with full house .357 loads.)
I still have a few boxes and pieces of boxes of various +p around. When I shoot it up, I won't be buying any more of it, mainly because I don't want to pay 75 cents to a dollar each for gimmick ammo. I don't really subscribe to the light bullet/high velocity theory in handgun ammo, especially when we are talking about 950-1000 fps max as "high" velocity. I have shot enough feral dogs, armadillos, feral cats, and even finished off enough deer to realize that a 148 grain wc at 950 fps from a 4" barrel is at least as good as and probably better than a 125 grain jacketed hp at the same velocity that probably will not expand anyhow. That load, by the way, is from the Speer #9 Manual, published in 1974. Using Unique powder, I started about .5 grains below the published maximum and went to within .1 grain of the maximum, without any signs of high pressure in any of my .38s. I load my practice/target loads with 2.9 grains of Bullseye, an old standard for .38 special. I differentiate between the two loads by crimping the target load flush with the case mouth, and crimping the "field" load in the crimping groove, leaving a little of the bullet extended from the case.
I still say that fishinjunkie can shoot +p in his fine Model 10-5 'till the cows come home without suffering any more than normal wear. If a steel framed K-frame won't stand up to nearly unlimited amounts of 125/950 ammo, then there just ain't much to it.
