Thanksgiving discussion.

[Danuwoa]

You know what the funny thing is about the origin of the term woke is it was originally just used to describe who didn’t believe the moon landing was real. That was all.

Then some pointy headed liberal dork found out about it and was like, “Oh black people say this word! They use it all the time! That means it’s kewel.” And it suddenly became their word for themselves.

Then conservatives started describing them that way and they quickly wanted to act as if they had never used it.

As for the question in the OP, I don’t see how. Woke people worship the government.

 

[WaltL1]

What would you say to the claim that the degradation of Western society is the result of the move towards atheism that you describe?

My opinion is ... Atheism is an easy scapegoat to avoid that in fact the degradation occured and is occuring under a Christian dominated society.
And no I dont blame Christianity.
These folks who make that claim must think the comparatively tiny number of Atheists are awfully powerful folks.
Whats interesting is one man's "degradation" is another man's "improvement".

 

[oldfella1962]

My opinion is ... Atheism is an easy scapegoat to avoid that in fact the degradation occured and is occuring under a Christian dominated society.
And no I dont blame Christianity.
These folks who make that claim must think the comparatively tiny number of Atheists are awfully powerful folks.
Whats interesting is one man's "degradation" is another man's "improvement".

Good point about "happening under Christian leadership" considering that America has Christian churches all over the place, but a high homicide & violent crime rate to go along with it. That said "Christian leadership" technically only applies to Christians - in Christian churches - and not to official government leadership or even management. Yes there are enclaves & communities in Northern Arizona/Southern Utah in which an outlaw sect of the Mormon Church literally control the entire community. Also, Amish communities are insular like this too. But no matter how many "Mega Churches" are in Texas these churches might have behind-the-scenes influence, but so far (knock on wood) there are no secular governments under official "Christian leadership" that I know of.

 

[ambush80]

Good point about "happening under Christian leadership" considering that America has Christian churches all over the place, but a high homicide & violent crime rate to go along with it. That said "Christian leadership" technically only applies to Christians - in Christian churches - and not to official government leadership or even management. Yes there are enclaves & communities in Northern Arizona/Southern Utah in which an outlaw sect of the Mormon Church literally control the entire community. Also, Amish communities are insular like this too. But no matter how many "Mega Churches" are in Texas these churches might have behind-the-scenes influence, but so far (knock on wood) there are no secular governments under official "Christian leadership" that I know of.

"W." said he prayed with his pastor before thrusting us into the Afghanistan war.

 

[oldfella1962]

"W." said he prayed with his pastor before thrusting us into the Afghanistan war.

W "consulted" with a pastor. But all that pastor had the authority to do is offer advice to W. If the pastor and W. disagreed, the decision was still down to W. The nation didn't elect W's pastor to be the President. If W. consulted a "Magic 8 Ball" toy or a fortune teller it wouldn't matter - the leadership decision was still made by W.

 

[ambush80]

W "consulted" with a pastor. But all that pastor had the authority to do is offer advice to W. If the pastor and W. disagreed, the decision was still down to W. The nation didn't elect W's pastor to be the President. If W. consulted a "Magic 8 Ball" toy or a fortune teller it wouldn't matter - the leadership decision was still made by W.

Romans 8:31-33

King James Version

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

​

 

[oldfella1962]

Romans 8:31-33​

​

King James Version​

​

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?​

​

​

That verse doesn't make sense to me. Is it saying that if God is on your side, you are automatically in the right? Or does it mean that if God is on your side, your enemy doesn't stand a chance? Either option doesn't match how my military experiences played out. Also, what if Christians are fighting other Christians like in France in the 1500's when the Catholics & Protestants warred for 36 years? Both sides worshipped the same God - so whose side was God on? They fought for 36 years, so maybe he just let them fight it out until they got tired, like puppies. Also Jews & Christians fought wars against each other in various places in the early days of Christianity and throughout the Middle Ages. Again, whose side was God on? The side that prayed to Yahweh or the side that prayed to Yahweh/Jesus? Everybody knows about the Crusades against Islam, but not many people know that Christians and Jews were warring with each other, just on a smaller scale. Yes Islam is the third Abrahamic religion, but for the most part the cultures that are heavily Muslim are a whole different level of problematic to say the least.

 

[ambush80]

That verse doesn't make sense to me. Is it saying that if God is on your side, you are automatically in the right? Or does it mean that if God is on your side, your enemy doesn't stand a chance? Either option doesn't match how my military experiences played out. Also, what if Christians are fighting other Christians like in France in the 1500's when the Catholics & Protestants warred for 36 years? Both sides worshipped the same God - so whose side was God on? They fought for 36 years, so maybe he just let them fight it out until they got tired, like puppies. Also Jews & Christians fought wars against each other in various places in the early days of Christianity and throughout the Middle Ages. Again, whose side was God on? The side that prayed to Yahweh or the side that prayed to Yahweh/Jesus? Everybody knows about the Crusades against Islam, but not many people know that Christians and Jews were warring with each other, just on a smaller scale. Yes Islam is the third Abrahamic religion, but for the most part the cultures that are heavily Muslim are a whole different level of problematic to say the least.

It can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. That's part of it's power.

 

[oldfella1962]

It can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. That's part of it's power.

Power? I suppose I can see the "power" of that verse - and the Bible in general - of utility. The Bible is kind of a Swiss Army Knife in that regard. If something can be interpreted on different levels it can be used to influence a wider variety of people, depending on how you spin things. The Bible is a great example of a test where "there are no right or wrong answers" because it's just a "jumping off point" to encourage further examination. That of course isn't the only reason the Bible was written, but that's one of the things that resulted as a result of it being written. Any large joint undertaking or venture has countless reasons & motivations.

 

[ambush80]

Power? I suppose I can see the "power" of that verse - and the Bible in general - of utility. The Bible is kind of a Swiss Army Knife in that regard. If something can be interpreted on different levels it can be used to influence a wider variety of people, depending on how you spin things. The Bible is a great example of a test where "there are no right or wrong answers" because it's just a "jumping off point" to encourage further examination. That of course isn't the only reason the Bible was written, but that's one of the things that resulted as a result of it being written. Any large joint undertaking or venture has countless reasons & motivations.

It gives "grace" and a kind of certainty in the face of an uncertainty, but is vague enough to apply to lots of different circumstances. The prayers are ALWAYS answered (certainty). The answer will be either "Yes, No or Not right now (vague) and universal. It can motivate someone to charge into certain death and provide comfort when things don't go as planned. Nothing secular has that kind of "power" that I know of. It would be nice to come up with secular messaging that performs a similar function.

 

[oldfella1962]

It gives "grace" and a kind of certainty in the face of an uncertainty, but is vague enough to apply to lots of different circumstances. The prayers are ALWAYS answered (certainty). The answer will be either "Yes, No or Not right now (vague) and universal. It can motivate someone to charge into certain death and provide comfort when things don't go as planned. Nothing secular has that kind of "power" that I know of. It would be nice to come up with secular messaging that performs a similar function.

A "messaging" that motivates people to charge into certain death?
I guess that's pretty powerful, but not always advantageous depending on your perspective. That messaging didn't work out for a lot of folks in the Twin Towers on 9/11.

That said there are secular things that are strong motivators. Secular things like dedication to family, country and humanity in general and lofty ideals like liberty motivate plenty of atheists to charge into certain death. As for providing comfort when things don't go as planned?
The older I get the more I realize that the universe doesn't exist for my comfort. Things don't go "as planned" for everybody from time-to-time because "as planned" is just a human concept. It's arrogant & prideful of me to expect things to play out to my advantage, or that some supernatural deity exists that might - depending on their plans or even their mood - break the laws of physics to help me out, or on the other hand hinder me. I would rather do my level best to provide actual comfort to people who might need it. My motivation? Because I'm grateful for the opportunity to be alive and to be in a position to help people. I don't need an eternal reward and I don't desire an eternal reward. To think I deserve an eternal reward is arrogant. Why should I get a reward just for doing my job? Granted some people might say I'm arrogant for thinking that it's "my job" to be as helpful as I can be as often as I can - but IMHO it's not just "my job" it is '"everyone's job" because we humans are all riding this rocky planet together until the day that we get kicked off this ride.
Humans have to help each other - or at least get along together. If we can't get along and somebody has to harm me - or I have to harm them - I shouldn't take it personally because that's just how humans - and most complex species - are hardwired through evolution.

Bottom line my way of thinking might not be "messaging" that will win too many hearts & minds or fit on a bumper sticker, but it works for me and can apply to everybody on the planet. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Madman]

I do not know if I will ever see beautification, but I do know:

No easy life, no advantages,

“we love because he first loved us.” 1 John 4:19

 

[Madman]

To whom would one offer gratitude and for what?

 

[ambush80]

To whom would one offer gratitude and for what?

If the answer isn't obvious, then, to whomever. Who would one blame for calamity or misfortune?

 

[ambush80]

You know what the funny thing is about the origin of the term woke is it was originally just used to describe who didn’t believe the moon landing was real. That was all.

Then some pointy headed liberal dork found out about it and was like, “Oh black people say this word! They use it all the time! That means it’s kewel.” And it suddenly became their word for themselves.

Then conservatives started describing them that way and they quickly wanted to act as if they had never used it.

As for the question in the OP, I don’t see how. Woke people worship the government.

Think you know where 'woke' comes from? Inside the word's musical history – and influence.

'Woke' has been hijacked by white people left and right. It's a great American word that needs to be restored to its original meaning.

www.usatoday.com

But to your point, yes, the white people saw the black people saying it and they appropriated it. They do it with lots of things that originated in American black culture, like "Right on!" and "Booyah!", "Cool, man", high fives and choreographed handshakes. . Wokeness always spoke about oppression and imbalance of power, even when Leadbelly was using the term.

I can make a case for Christianity being compatible with wokeness.

 

[Danuwoa]

Think you know where 'woke' comes from? Inside the word's musical history – and influence.

'Woke' has been hijacked by white people left and right. It's a great American word that needs to be restored to its original meaning.

www.usatoday.com

But to your point, yes, the white people saw the black people saying it and they appropriated it. They do it with lots of things that originated in American black culture, like "Right on!" and "Booyah!", "Cool, man", high fives and choreographed handshakes. . Wokeness always spoke about oppression and imbalance of power, even when Leadbelly was using the term.

I can make a case for Christianity being compatible with wokeness.

I’m sure you could but I wouldnt listen.

 

[ambush80]

I’m sure you could but I wouldnt listen.

Your loss. I'm pretty entertaining, if I don't say so myself.

 

[Madman]

If the answer isn't obvious, then, to whomever. Who would one blame for calamity or misfortune?

I am missing the obvious. If someone is grateful, then to whom are they grateful, especially if they profess to not believe in a “higher power “.

 

[oldfella1962]

If the answer isn't obvious, then, to whomever. Who would one blame for calamity or misfortune?

Who to blame? Nobody! If nobody causes all the misfortune/calamity in life, there is nobody to blame. Do we blame the laws of nature or the laws of physics? Without them we wouldn't even exist. Granted when I say misfortune or calamity, I am mainly speaking about "acts of God" as the saying goes - like disease, natural disasters, unpreventable accidents, things like that. IMHO we can blame those who deliberately harm us, but no sense dwelling on it for too long. The Bible says "I am a vengeful God" which is God's prerogative I guess, who am I to judge? You do you, God - I have my own thing going on.

 

[Spotlite]

Power? I suppose I can see the "power" of that verse - and the Bible in general - of utility. The Bible is kind of a Swiss Army Knife in that regard. If something can be interpreted on different levels it can be used to influence a wider variety of people, depending on how you spin things. The Bible is a great example of a test where "there are no right or wrong answers" because it's just a "jumping off point" to encourage further examination. That of course isn't the only reason the Bible was written, but that's one of the things that resulted as a result of it being written. Any large joint undertaking or venture has countless reasons & motivations.

Wrong.

Hundreds of interpretations doesn’t mean hundreds of correct interpretations.