The Lordship salvation controversy.

[Artfuldodger]

I agree with exactly what you said. The “choice” between right and wrong. It’s still our choice. While the Lord commands us to do as he says you still have to cross the threshold of making that choice to follow him. Hence every time the word “love” is used. Its crystal clear to me it’s a choice but if we CHOOSE him then his commandments are the guide line to victory in this earthly walk that we endure on this earth. To me there is no two ways about it. If you love him you will want to have the desire too follow his commandments. I think of it this way too... if you have a wife and you love her like the Lord loves us and some smoking hot woman comes along you have a choice to follow the human natural flesh or adhere to the marriage vowels you said to her. If your love is true like the Lords love is to us there will be no question as the the “guideline/ vowels” to made to her on that special day. That’s how I see it. It’s about loving and nothing more than that for each and every one of us.

I would agree as in marriage. If one loves his spouse, he will follow the vows of what marriage is. I guess no one really sat down with me and told me what those requirements were. Most of it just comes naturally if you love someone. You don't cheat, you don't party without them, you aren't jealous. You aren't selfish, you don't quarrel, you forgive, etc.

Again you mentioned if we choose Him, we have a desire to follow his commandments. I understand that part. What I'm seeking or asking is, what are those commandments? Is it spelled out in scripture or do we just know because it's in our hearts?
Do we really need a list or do we just know what God would want us to do like we know what our spouse would want us to do?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Back to that Commandment List, if the group in Romans 1 knew God by his General Call/Revelation, then the knew God's commandments. If they chose to ignore God from that knowledge and worship idols, then it angered God.

I can't see how God is angry at the whole world if they are following his commands by just a General Calling. Especially if they are totally depraved and haven't had an Effectual Calling.

Can one be totally depraved and expected to follow God's Law like the group in Romans 1 and at the same time be so depraved as to not have an Effectual Calling? Again, what did this group do as it concerned their general revelation that got them in so much hot water to begin with?

How can God send out a call in nature to follow him and then later say, sorry guys, the call is not for everyone but a select few.

Just trying to work that part of scripture into what is different after being called to be a child of God. Did all of Israel have a General Call? Yet only a remnant was offered an Effectual Call and the rest were hardened.

So maybe the commandment list has always been what we know within our hearts concerning the whole world. We know this by nature. The Jews, also new God's Law)Love) by having a General calling(nature) and an Effectual calling(The Law.)

A lot of the General Call laws would be like not murdering and stealing. The Effective Calling laws and what the Jews had would be like not having more than one wife, Jeolously, Pride, Homoexuality, Cheating, etc.

 

[hoytman308]

Back to that Commandment List, if the group in Romans 1 knew God by his General Call/Revelation, then the knew God's commandments. If they chose to ignore God from that knowledge and worship idols, then it angered God.

I can't see how God is angry at the whole world if they are following his commands by just a General Calling. Especially if they are totally depraved and haven't had an Effectual Calling.

Can one be totally depraved and expected to follow God's Law like the group in Romans 1 and at the same time be so depraved as to not have an Effectual Calling? Again, what did this group do as it concerned their general revelation that got them in so much hot water to begin with?

How can God send out a call in nature to follow him and then later say, sorry guys, the call is not for everyone but a select few.

Just trying to work that part of scripture into what is different after being called to be a child of God. Did all of Israel have a General Call? Yet only a remnant was offered an Effectual Call and the rest were hardened.

So maybe the commandment list has always been what we know within our hearts concerning the whole world. We know this by nature. The Jews, also new God's Law)Love) by having a General calling(nature) and an Effectual calling(The Law.)

A lot of the General Call laws would be like not murdering and stealing. The Effective Calling laws and what the Jews had would be like not having more than one wife, Jeolously, Pride, Homoexuality, Cheating, etc.

I would agree as in marriage. If one loves his spouse, he will follow the vows of what marriage is. I guess no one really sat down with me and told me what those requirements were. Most of it just comes naturally if you love someone. You don't cheat, you don't party without them, you aren't jealous. You aren't selfish, you don't quarrel, you forgive, etc.

Again you mentioned if we choose Him, we have a desire to follow his commandments. I understand that part. What I'm seeking or asking is, what are those commandments? Is it spelled out in scripture or do we just know because it's in our hearts?
Do we really need a list or do we just know what God would want us to do like we know what our spouse would want us to do?

The answers you seek are scattered all throughout the Bible. Yes they are in black and white. It all depends on what’s going on in your life as to what answers you may be seeking. God has a lot to offer was as to how we should be in the book of Proverbs. God gave Moses the 10 commandments which I would imagine you have heard of or maybe familiar with which are guidelines/ commandments.

 

[hoytman308]

Ok

Back to that Commandment List, if the group in Romans 1 knew God by his General Call/Revelation, then the knew God's commandments. If they chose to ignore God from that knowledge and worship idols, then it angered God.

I can't see how God is angry at the whole world if they are following his commands by just a General Calling. Especially if they are totally depraved and haven't had an Effectual Calling.

Can one be totally depraved and expected to follow God's Law like the group in Romans 1 and at the same time be so depraved as to not have an Effectual Calling? Again, what did this group do as it concerned their general revelation that got them in so much hot water to begin with?

How can God send out a call in nature to follow him and then later say, sorry guys, the call is not for everyone but a select few.

Just trying to work that part of scripture into what is different after being called to be a child of God. Did all of Israel have a General Call? Yet only a remnant was offered an Effectual Call and the rest were hardened.

So maybe the commandment list has always been what we know within our hearts concerning the whole world. We know this by nature. The Jews, also new God's Law)Love) by having a General calling(nature) and an Effectual calling(The Law.)

A lot of the General Call laws would be like not murdering and stealing. The Effective Calling laws and what the Jews had would be like not having more than one wife, Jeolously, Pride, Homoexuality, Cheating, etc.[/QUOTE

The book of Romans in the first chapter relates to the whole world because there is no partiality with God hence he is God for us all no matter Jew or gentile. In this the apostle Paul is stating that all humanity is found guilty and justification is revealed which in return meets mans need and is received through faith alone. So in that Romans states that the divine provisions of Gods grace Is sufficient to declare sinners as righteous through the atoning work of His righteous son. Then later goes on to set forth how the nature of the new life can be obtained through the power of the Holy Spirit feeling within us. To be perfectly honest if any one person tries to take on the Bible as a whole it can be over whelming much like anything in life. God wants a daily walk a relationship with you in that it’s day by day; moment by moment. We will not ever understand completely his will. But through faith we can make it through anything in life. Will it be what we want at all times. I don’t believe it will. Will we understand the “why” I don’t think so but if our hearts and minds stay focused on him and we lean on him at every turn he will guide us and lead us to where he have us be.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Furtaker is one of the best friends you could possibly have. He is proclaiming good news to sinners. But it is hard to find a sinner.

The self-righteous are aplenty.

In his "good news" the good news is only "good" this side of the grave and then that's very questionable. It's antithetical to scripture and the true gospel. You can't really consider yourself a Christian (Christ-like) and continue to chase sin preaching it's of no consequence because you are saved. To believe so is to be worse than childishly self-deceived, for even a child is ashamed when they err.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

OK let's put some spectacles on this mule and rephrase the proposition this way: Why would you NOT WANT to make Christ your Lord and Master. I'm speaking from experience here, but I can affirm without a doubt that each and every time over the course of my life that I chose my will over His will, and that has been the majority of the time, it never turned out good. In fact, even on the good days, it has NEVER turned out as good as it would have if I had just obeyed him as a slave would a master: following His example, teachings, and precepts. I'm not a good Master of myself. My history makes this very, very obvious. I think it's because I wasn't created to a Master at all, but a follower, a slave.

I'm blessed beyond measure now ONLY because I chose to do my best to submit myself wholly to his will. Once I did that my entire life turned around. Hold the "duh" please?

Time after time Scripture tells the story of those who did the same and were blessed beyond measure. Then we have the Saints and the titans of Christianity down through the ages through the present day who have made this very, very strong decision and are blessed beyond measure for it. Can anyone name one of these who regretted their decision, just one?

On the opposite end of the spectrum we have Legion and the masses who follow, not their will, but Satans. Scripture is very clear and common sense dictates that there are no fence sitters. "A servant can only serve one master." and there are only 2. There is no God, Satan and Myself, only God and Satan. Any notion that I am following MY will is just intellectual dishonesty and self-delusion. If I'm not following God's will ,by default, I'm following Satan's. So what are the consequences of that JUDGED ONLY ON THE EVIDENCE? I think it's safe to say any sane person cannot name one, NOT ONE instance since the dawn of time where anyone has benefitted from serving themself/Satan. Does the name Eve strike a bell with anyone?

So, back to the question. Why would anyone NOT WANT to make Christ his Lord/Master and be his slave knowing both the benefits and the consequences? Forget the entire works debate, because it's a red herring as far as the doctrine (question) is concerned? The answer is obvious for anyone with the honesty and courage to admit it.

 

[furtaker]

Gratitude for a completely free gift is a good motivator for living a godly life. I always laugh when I hear people say, "So since all you have to do is believe in Jesus for eternal life, you can go out and live like the devil". I've believed this message for a long time and I never have done it. I'm very far from perfect, but I don't live my life like a wild man just because I know I'm going to heaven. I choose not to. There are consequences to sin in a believer's life that will never be h*ll. People have the hardest time grasping that concept. But guess what? I can go out and live like the devil if I want to. And I'll still go to heaven. I'm saved by grace and I didn't earn it.

Most of the world believes that if you're bad, you're going to h*ll. I've known church-going people who believed that if you were bad, you could lose your salvation...yet those same people chose to live pretty rotten lives. Funny how that works, ain't it?

It all boils down to whether or not you believe that salvation is truly a free gift like the Bible says it is. Most folks don't think that it is...they think it's a trade. It's truly an insult to what Jesus did for us on the cross. The Bible says it's either totally by grace or totally by works. There can't be a mixture of the two.

 

[hummerpoo]

Seems to me that talking about salvation is a lot like talking about the weather.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

C.S. Lewis on the subject of faith/works astutely noted, ""Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. "

IMHO the Lordship doctrine's relationship to the subject answers the question "Who wields the scissors?"

 

[Israel]

I'm blessed beyond measure now ONLY because I chose to do my best to submit myself wholly to his will. Once I did that my entire life turned around. Hold the "duh" please?

.

Do you not believe you were blessed before?

 

[welderguy]

We love Him because He first loved us.
and...
He scourgeth every son that He receiveth.

We had all likewise gone astray, but for His loving, faithful, scourging.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Do you believe you were blessed before?

Great question!!!! Looking back over my life I can see that God has always been there, even when I was living for Satan. That said, my service to Satan kept me from receiving the blessings of God. I sowed my destruction and reaped what I had sown, or better said, it reaped me.....almost. My will separated me from God's righteousness, plain and simple. For many years I continued in this as many other Christians do, be it in the name of sexual immorality, drugs/alcohol, gambling. Immoral behavior takes unlimited forms, all leading to grief and self-destruction. Claiming salvation, going to Church regularly, I knew deep withing myself that "something" was missing. Spiritually something just wasn't right. I didn't have that God relationship that the Bible portrays, that my pastor portrays, that other notable Christians that I read about and witnessed portray. Whatever it was, deep down I knew I didn't have it. There were times I thought I could almost feel it, hear it, sense it, but it was always beckoning, never in my grasp. What was I missing?

Then came the crash and I was stripped of everything, physically, mentally, emotionally,:everything. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I learned the most important lesson in life. There are only 2 choices in life and we are presented with them continually throughout every day of our life: follow God's will for me completely without reservation or follow my will( aka Satan's will). I had seen, felt, and endured the result of following my/Satan's will. Anything would have been an improvement, anything. So option (B) it was.

I started to practice this to the best of my ability, to make Christ my Lord. I'm not very successful at it, but the will is there. The results: my life is better than I ever could have dreamed it would be in my wildest dreams. I have a peace that transcends my circumstance whatever they may be and that peace is directly proportional to my will and ability to follow Him. If I lose that peace, it's a sure sign I've stepped out of his will, and I have to do a quick backtrack.

So to answer your question, "Do I believe I was blessed before?" This is my best effort at answering that. Blessed in the sense, I was allowed to live to reap the destructive repercussions of my will and not die? Yes. Blessed in the sense of the redemption, transcendent peace, and love that a personal relationship with Christ as LORD as well as Savior brings? No. Not at all.

I believe correctly or incorrectly, that I was saved years ago when I accepted Christ as my savior at the age of 14. I had a true spiritual revelation at that time that was very personal and Christ was revealed to me as exactly who the Bible portrays him to be. It was a revelation in every sense of the word. Yet, it didn't have the effect on me of making Christ my Lord in the Master/slave tense. I wish it had. My life would have been inconceivably better, but I never even heard of the concept, much less understood it. The term "Lord" was just another name for Savior as far as I was concerned, and upon my being baptized with my profession "Jesus is Lord."from "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." I understood the term as "Savior." Ignorance is NOT bliss, at least not in this case, my case. Learning that was both the most painful and the most treasured lesson I have ever been blessed to comprehend .

So what's the take away? Making Jesus my Lord and me his slave has been the one and ONLY true difference maker in finding joy and peace in this life. That's all. Period.

 

[hummerpoo]

Great question!!!! Looking back over my life I can see that God has always been there, even when I was living for Satan. That said, my service to Satan kept me from receiving the blessings of God. I sowed my destruction and reaped what I had sown, or better said, it reaped me.....almost. My will separated me from God's righteousness, plain and simple. For many years I continued in this as many other Christians do, be it in the name of sexual immorality, drugs/alcohol, gambling. Immoral behavior takes unlimited forms, all leading to grief and self-destruction. Claiming salvation, going to Church regularly, I knew deep withing myself that "something" was missing. Spiritually something just wasn't right. I didn't have that God relationship that the Bible portrays, that my pastor portrays, that other notable Christians that I read about and witnessed portray. Whatever it was, deep down I knew I didn't have it. There were times I thought I could almost feel it, hear it, sense it, but it was always beckoning, never in my grasp. What was I missing?

Then came the crash and I was stripped of everything, physically, mentally, emotionally,:everything. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I learned the most important lesson in life. There are only 2 choices in life and we are presented with them continually throughout every day of our life: follow God's will for me completely without reservation or follow my will( aka Satan's will). I had seen, felt, and endured the result of following my/Satan's will. Anything would have been an improvement, anything. So option (B) it was.

I started to practice this to the best of my ability, to make Christ my Lord. I'm not very successful at it, but the will is there. The results: my life is better than I ever could have dreamed it would be in my wildest dreams. I have a peace that transcends my circumstance whatever they may be and that peace is directly proportional to my will and ability to follow Him. If I lose that peace, it's a sure sign I've stepped out of his will, and I have to do a quick backtrack.

So to answer your question, "Do I believe I was blessed before?" This is my best effort at answering that. Blessed in the sense, I was allowed to live to reap the destructive repercussions of my will and not die? Yes. Blessed in the sense of the redemption, transcendent peace, and love that a personal relationship with Christ as LORD as well as Savior brings? No. Not at all.

I believe correctly or incorrectly, that I was saved years ago when I accepted Christ as my savior at the age of 14. I had a true spiritual revelation at that time that was very personal and Christ was revealed to me as exactly who the Bible portrays him to be. It was a revelation in every sense of the word. Yet, it didn't have the effect on me of making Christ my Lord in the Master/slave tense. I wish it had. My life would have been inconceivably better, but I never even heard of the concept, much less understood it. The term "Lord" was just another name for Savior as far as I was concerned, and upon my being baptized with my profession "Jesus is Lord."from "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." I understood the term as "Savior." Ignorance is NOT bliss, at least not in this case, my case. Learning that was both the most painful and the most treasured lesson I have ever been blessed to comprehend .

So what's the take away? Making Jesus my Lord and me his slave has been the one and ONLY true difference maker in finding joy and peace in this life. That's all. Period.

It sounds as though your life experience and my life experience might be reducible to the the same outline.

I count my time in the weeds as a great blessing as there was so much I learned in those years that effects my view of my neighbors — some of it positively and some negatively. I believe that God gives us those experiences for His glory, although I don't always apprehend how the puzzle pieces fit together that make that picture.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

It sounds as though your life experience and my life experience might be reducible to the the same outline.

I count my time in the weeds as a great blessing as there was so much I learned in those years that effects my view of my neighbors — some of it positively and some negatively. I believe that God gives us those experiences for His glory, although I don't always apprehend how the puzzle pieces fit together that make that picture.

We can take those experiences and use them to help others. Those suffering see our scars and KNOW we can relate to their suffering, thus scars are the evidence of our credibility of a shared suffering. Our interactions with them gives credibility to our present state of improvement. Our testimony about how God brought us from our past to present glorifies his power, love and mercy, but it's only our credibility that encourages them to have the trust to do the same. Without the pain and suffering that caused our scars they would have no reason to trust our credibility, no reason to trust our testimony, and no reason to trust that God could and would work the same miracles in them that he worked in us. In fact, I can think of nothing that has the capacity to glorify God more than our pain and suffering, if we remain steadfast in his will. And I can think of no better example of it than Christ on the cross.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I buried an Aunt today. She died Tuesday. She was so bad in her earlier life the family wouldn't let her come around, not even in the yard. She suffered 2 massive strokes at about 40 that left her in the state of an infant. She had to learn how to swallow and speak again. The first and only word she said for first year or so was" Amen". The first phrase she could speak was "Thank you Jesus." Her speech never recovered much past that, existing only of a single word or a short 2-3 word phrase. I saw something I have never witnessed today, a pastor break down and cry preaching a funeral of one of his parishioners. His voice broke many times and he would have to stop and compose himself as he spoke of her, not of a deceased member, but a dearly love one near to his heart. It struck me all of a sudden why: his love of her was the same as ours: that of a close family member.

He spoke the truth as we all had come to know it in the years after her stroke and that was this: She had only one love in her life and that was Jesus, but she loved him by loving each and every person she met like they were her children or siblings. She had only one purpose in life and that was to serve Jesus by serving others. As physically and mentally debilitated as she was, she understood the most basic concept of Christianity: that love of Christ and service to Christ go hand in hand. They are inseparable. She grasped it and she lived it for the last 24 years of her life like no one I have personally ever known, certainly not myself.

The result was as one might expect. She touched everyone she met as they marveled how someone so debilitated could always be so happy, always saying "Thank you Jesus"no matter her circumstance or how sick she was, always serving others to the very end. Her life was visibly a living testimony to others of Christ and glorified Him in every way.

After the funeral I went up and told him what I had perceived and thanked him. He acknowledged it and stated that love is everything and it all flows from Jesus to us and from us to others.

I thought about her and her life ever since the funeral this morning and upon seeing this thread again it reinforced what I believe: that if Christ isn't your Lord, then you don't love Him and because of that there's no way possible to live your life in a manner that will glorify Him. It's just not possible. And in truth that's the sole purpose we were created: to glorify Him.