Total Depravity & Without Excuse

[Artfuldodger]

I hard as I've tried to reconcile this concept, I can't see it.

Hear is one explanation from the following link;

Some see these truths as being incompatible and would in fact use Romans 1 as an argument against the doctrine of total depravity; but this argument falls flat upon closer examination. The key to understanding these complementary doctrines is to remember this basic axiom: Total Depravity is not an “excuse” for man’s rejection of God, rather it is an “explanation” of it. The unbeliever is both totally depraved and without excuse

Unbelievers are both totally depraved and without excuse because even in their depravity, the sinner still has the ability to see that God is there.

Total depravity does not excuse such behavior. It explains it, but it doesn’t excuse it.

Finally, sinful man is both totally depraved and without excuse because it is man’s fault that he is totally depraved in the first place.

Regeneration is not required in order to see the hand of God at work in creation, yet still man in his sin “suppresses the truth in unrighteousness” by both denying God and refusing to honor and thank Him for His provision.

http://reformedlibertarian.com/blog...t-excuse-how-both-are-true-in-the-unbeliever/

 

[hummerpoo]

So, you have studied the doctrine of total depravity, right?
>>>you understand what the theological term "total depravity" means<<<

 

[Artfuldodger]

So, you have studied the doctrine of total depravity, right?
>>>you understand what the theological term "total depravity" means<<<

Not really, I guess that should be my starting point before I can understand Total Depravity and Without Excuse.

 

[hummerpoo]

Not really, I guess that should be my starting point before I can understand Total Depravity and Without Excuse.

It makes sense to me that way.

As you know, I sometimes recommend scripture for a particular area of study; in suggesting a web page it's a different thing altogether. This one is ok, but I'm not saying it is perfect, or that I necessarily accept everything said or implied. My only confidence is that the author is well studied in the doctrine and generally reliable in his representations (far more than I am). (Candidly, there is one part I'd love to discuss with him to better understand the basis for his statements)...but it's good; hey, he talks about the nuances of that word.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/depravity.html

 

[Jeffriesw]

The 6th chapter of the Westminster Confession of Faith offers what I believe to be a fine synopsis of what the Bible has to say about man's estate after the fall.
Here is chapter 6 with the scripture proofs f you have time to read up on it.

Chapter 6
Of the Fall of Man,
of Sin, and of the Punishment Thereof

1. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.a This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, hav- ing purposed to order it to his own glory.b

2. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and com- minion with God,c and so became dead in sin,d and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.e

3. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;f and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.g

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indis- posed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,h and wholly inclined to all evil,i do proceed all actual transgressions.k


5. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated;l and although it be, through Christ, par- doned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.m

6. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,n doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,o whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,p and curse of the law,q and so made subject to death,r with all miseries spiritual,s temporal,t and eternal.u

a. Gen. 3:13. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 2 Cor. 11:3. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
b. See chapter 5, section 4.
c. Gen. 3:6–8. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. Rom. 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
d. Gen. 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Eph. 2:1–3. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. See Rom. 5:12.
e. Gen. 6:5. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Jer. 17:9. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Titus 1:15. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Rom. 3:10–19. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: their feet are
swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways: and the way of peace have they not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
f. Acts 17:26. And [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. Rom. 5:12, 15–19. Wherefore, as by one man sin en- tered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (... But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteous- ness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 1 Cor. 15:21–22, 49. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.... And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
g. Ps. 51:5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. John 3:6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Gen. 5:3. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth. Job 15:14. What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
h. Rom. 5:6. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Rom. 7:18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Rom. 8:7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Col. 1:21. And you, that were sometime alien- ated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
i. Gen. 8:21. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. See Gen. 6:5; Rom. 3:10–12.
k. Matt. 15:19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries,


fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. James 1:14–15. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Eph. 2:2–3. ... wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, ac- cording to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the chil- dren of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
l. Prov. 20:9. Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? Eccl. 7:20. For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Rom. 7:14, 17–18, 21–23. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.... Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.... I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 1 John 1:8, 10. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
m. Rom. 7:7–8, 25. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.... I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Gal. 5:17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
n. 1 John 3:4. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
o. Rom. 2:15. ... which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. Rom. 3:9, 19. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.... Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

[Jeffriesw]

G.I. Williamson offers a great study guide for the WCF, if you are so inclined to read up on it.



http://www.wtsbooks.com/westminster-confession-of-faith-g-i-williamson-9780875525938

 

[gordon 2]

It makes sense to me that way.

As you know, I sometimes recommend scripture for a particular area of study; in suggesting a web page it's a different thing altogether. This one is ok, but I'm not saying it is perfect, or that I necessarily accept everything said or implied. My only confidence is that the author is well studied in the doctrine and generally reliable in his representations (far more than I am). (Candidly, there is one part I'd love to discuss with him to better understand the basis for his statements)...but it's good; hey, he talks about the nuances of that word.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/depravity.html

Dear Bros,
Can I ask you a question and perhaps get an answer one way or the other.

This is the opening sentence of Piper's paper:


When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.

Can I suggest that man's natural condition since the fall is not depravity not according as to what the bible indicates depravity is; But rather man's natural condition apart from any grace is his sinful nature. All sin is a separation from God, but depravity is a special case.

For example in the word it describes depravity as a "depraved mind,to do what ought not to be done. This refers to people who do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, who are given to the perversion of nature. When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition perverted to lusts, i.e. women who exchange natural relations for unnatural ones, the same with men given to perversions, folk given to the degrading their bodies, serving the created in lieu of the Creator...etc...

The above are the depraved as described in scripture. So what Piper says in his opening sentence is perhaps in whole or in part incorrect regard his natural condition. Not all sinners are given to unnatural perversions--especially converts to the faith.

Therefore, my question. Could I write Piper's sentence as this:
When we speak of man's (sinful nature) we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man. And that depravity is an exacerbation of our sinful nature inherited from Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve were not depraved as far as I can tell,( the were not like the people in Noah's day who were) and I know many who would not fall under the biblical description of depraved people who were the cause for the Flood.
Abam was he depraved? His princess perhaps? I think not. Sinners yes. Depraved... eh... I think not.


I really don't understand that grace would restrain or transform the will of man, sinful man or a man walking with God? I understand that God has never abandoned sinners, especially since Adam and Eve, but with the eyes of a sinner Cain! who murdering God seems more of a crime than his parents separating from our Lord.

What say you? Are we painting sin nature with what is far worse which is depravity--which does not apply to the people of faith by definition--because the people of faith think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God in their day to day.

 

[hummerpoo]

Gordon,
“In the eyes of man” is meaningless.
“In the eyes of God” is truth.

When Jesus said “You have heard” he is talking about what men said.
When Jesus said “But I say to you” he is talking about what God said.

With that in mind, study (read, meditate, pray) Mat. 5:21-48.

If you have succeeded in that exercise, you do not see man as he wants to be seen by God (“You have heard”), but now have an idea how God sees him (“But I say to you”); and you understand why he must have a savior.

 

[hummerpoo]

Therefore, my question. Could I write Piper's sentence as this:
When we speak of man's (sinful nature) we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man. And that depravity is an exacerbation of our sinful nature inherited from Adam and Eve.

What say you? Are we painting sin nature with what is far worse which is depravity--

or are we using the euphemism "sin nature" to avoid openly acknowledging what is truly depravity?

 

[gordon 2]

Gordon,
“In the eyes of man” is meaningless.
“In the eyes of God” is truth.

When Jesus said “You have heard” he is talking about what men said.
When Jesus said “But I say to you” he is talking about what God said.

With that in mind, study (read, meditate, pray) Mat. 5:21-48.

If you have succeeded in that exercise, you do not see man as he wants to be seen by God (“You have heard”), but now have an idea how God sees him (“But I say to you”); and you understand why he must have a savior.[/QUOTe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have succeeded in that exercise, you do not see man as he wants to be seen by God (“You have heard”), but now have an idea how God sees him (“But I say to you”); and you understand why he must have a savior.

I'm not certain I follow your point here"If you have succeeded in that exercise, you do not see man as he wants to be seen by God (“You have heard”) .


( I have studied this a few times.)

Are you saying that man sees and does ( has a pointed heart and mind to) the "you have heards'" instead of the "But I say to you's"--even people of faith? Even Abraham and the King of Salem? Even you and I regardless that we are in Christ or not? And being such, this is called our depravity.

Yet scripture is precise about what a depraved mind is, how it comes about, how it behaves and the consequences and also regards Abraham what faith in God is for you and I and Abraham.

Here look. Are you saying I am this, a depraved individual because of the sin nature still present in my physical nature, because if I am this in spite of my Risen Lord's innocent blood offering for my salvation then I might as well orient my life's passion to bass fishing.

This is the definition of the depraved in my view. Does it include you and I, all man, men and women, who walked and walk with the Everlasting in the past, the present and in His future?
------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 1

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.




So what I have highlighted in blue I still am, a reprobate, still in a state of depravity according to the definition above, which is God's definition, even that I have died and risen with my Lord in the spirit-- I am essentially the same old lustful perverted creature that Lucifer spawned in the garden-- Jesus really did not change anything in me or my community? And the Holy Spirit's guidance for me is to one born again--yet not to a state of grace, my sins forgiven and not to walking with God--yet depraved I am, as per the definition of depravity in scripture ( Romans 1)?

 

[gordon 2]

or are we using the euphemism "sin nature" to avoid openly acknowledging what is truly depravity?

I' m not. Depravity is the excess and total giving in to sin nature still in the physical and dying world? Does the man of faith totally give in? Or does he race in faith and intimate in spirit with his Creator, to overcome that which is still corrupt to him, in him and in the world? It seems to me that the man of faith is in deeds still a sinner and a pilgrim, but not depraved according to scripture's definition of depravity.


Romans 1-32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I think this is the definition of depravity. Do we have such pleasures as these bros? I don't... Nay.

 

[hummerpoo]

This is the opening sentence of Piper's paper:


When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.

Could I write Piper's sentence as this:
When we speak of man's (sinful nature) we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.

Gordon,
“In the eyes of man” is meaningless.
“In the eyes of God” is truth.

When Jesus said “You have heard” he is talking about what men said.
When Jesus said “But I say to you” he is talking about what God said.

With that in mind, study (read, meditate, pray) Mat. 5:21-48.

If you have succeeded in that exercise, you do not see man as he wants to be seen by God (“You have heard”), but now have an idea how God sees him (“But I say to you”); and you understand why he must have a savior.[/QUOTe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have succeeded in that exercise, you do not see man as he wants to be seen by God (“You have heard”), but now have an idea how God sees him (“But I say to you”); and you understand why he must have a savior.

I'm not certain I follow your point here"If you have succeeded in that exercise, you do not see man as he wants to be seen by God (“You have heard”) .


( I have studied this a few times.)

Are you saying that man sees and does ( has a pointed heart and mind to) the "you have heards'" instead of the "But I say to you's"-- even people of faith? Even Abraham and the King of Salem? Even you and I regardless that we are in Christ or not? And being such, this is called our depravity.

No, I am not saying that. You did not modify Piper's statement in that regard (both his and yours exclude "people of faith", or "regenerate", in the purple phrase, or so I take it), nor did I address it.

Although the question of the activity of the "Flesh" in one who is regenerate(Rm. 7:15-25) is one of interest, and great complexity and contention, I did not address it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

------------------------------------------
Romans 1

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.




So what I have highlighted in blue I still am, a reprobate, still in a state of depravity according to the definition above, which is God's definition, even that I have died and risen with my Lord in the spirit-- I am essentially the same old lustful perverted creature that Lucifer spawned in the garden-- Jesus really did not change anything in me or my community? And the Holy Spirit's guidance for me is to one born again--yet not to a state of grace, my sins forgiven and not to walking with God--yet depraved I am, as per the definition of depravity in scripture ( Romans 1)?

I think you answered this below as a totally depraved reprobate might do all of these things and you only do a couple and I only do maybe 4 or 5 on the list.
I think the important lesson is the grace and our washing more than the depravity.
"and such were some of you but you were washed."

 

[BAR308]

the Bible does not teach 'total depravity'... it teaches men are in bondage to the devil for their sins b/c the devil has deceived them. men are not sinners b/c God created them that way... they are sinners b/c thats what they CHOOSE...
we must stick with what the Word says...

 

[Artfuldodger]

the Bible does not teach 'total depravity'... it teaches men are in bondage to the devil for their sins b/c the devil has deceived them. men are not sinners b/c God created them that way... they are sinners b/c thats what they CHOOSE...
we must stick with what the Word says...

Is it possible man is partially depraved until his eyes are partially opened by God to lead him to Jesus?

According to Romans 1 every man in the whole world knows God and is without excuse to praise him. What is man's role in bringing all of these people to salvation? If man must do something, why are they without excuse?
Personally I'd rather leave someone else salvation up to God. I don't believe I can open their eyes even if they are partially depraved.

God could not be just and righteous if He elected some for salvation, and not others but then again God could not be just and righteous if He depended on me to bring some to salvation, and not others.

 

[BAR308]

Is it possible man is partially depraved until his eyes are partially opened by God to lead him to Jesus?

According to Romans 1 every man in the whole world knows God and is without excuse to praise him. What is man's role in bringing all of these people to salvation? If man must do something, why are they without excuse?
Personally I'd rather leave someone else salvation up to God. I don't believe I can open their eyes even if they are partially depraved.

God could not be just and righteous if He elected some for salvation, and not others but then again God could not be just and righteous if He depended on me to bring some to salvation, and not others.

Proverbs 11:30
He that winneth souls is wise.

Proverbs 14:25
A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.

James 5:20
let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from
death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.."

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Proverbs 11:30
He that winneth souls is wise.

Proverbs 14:25
A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.

James 5:20
let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from
death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.."

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

I'm thinking about the South Pacific. They are without excuse yet even though they know God by his creation, God needs me to open their somewhat depraved eyes.

Does sending me make God more just and righteous than God having mercy on whom he will have mercy?

 

[BAR308]

im not saying there is no depravity in men... surely there is.. i just dont believe that God put it there. i dont believe in "original sin"... that makes God the author of sin and cause which He isnt. the Bible never blames God for mens sinful ways... He blames themselves, their lusts and the devils influence.

 

[Israel]

It is at best a difficult course to navigate.
To say "apart from God's grace" is somewhat akin to stating "if there is no God..." even in our finest arguments for making the point of God's existence. (which I am sure I have)
For we, as believers, can now no longer find a place where such statements truly make sense to us "If there is no God"..."If there is no grace"...leaves the believer having to admit..."nothing is without God"...and yet. Even the ability to say...anything...is of him. But God cannot be nullified even in our most exquisite of "ifs".

What does it mean then...when the writer says of the gentiles previous estate "without God and without hope in the world?"
It would appear obvious...is it not...God always had a hope to be revealed at the proper time, especially (if we can say that) toward the gentiles. "And in him shall the nations trust"?

I can only see in myself...the consequences of the "not retaining"...even in a daily, moment to moment breathing...that...were I not retained securely (I am persuaded)in the consciousness of another, what is let slip in my mind...might never be recovered...except one be working to keep me.
The one who is with you...but shall be in you...is of the same grace...whether with...or in. I can only thank God for the work that has allowed the greater presence in the "in"...but seem hard pressed to think he is less praiseworthy for the "with".
And although I can readily see "no case" is anyone making against God's grace, I cannot help but consider certain matters of argument, if taken to their end in our seeking to be right about them...may at some later time, like a slight impurity found in a casting...be a void we find of ourselves, in ourselves...really only put there...by ourselves. But again, I can only think "God's grace is more than sufficient to that...also...and always"
I think I may be getting so circular in reasoning (despised of men, it seems)...it just always comes to the same place. The only place...of coming to? Thankfully.