Total depravity revisited.

[Spineyman]

Here are a list of Old Testament Law that is also recorded in the New Testament

Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me.

Matthew 4:10, and You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him alone shall you serve.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.


Exodus 20:4 - 5 You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

1John 5:21, Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Acts 17:29
29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, and unbelieving . . . and idolaters . . . shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.


Exodus 20:7 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Matthew 6:9, Our Father Who is in heaven, hallowed be Your name.
1 Timothy 6:1
6 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.


Exodus 20:8 - 11 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Mark 2:27 - 28 The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath; Therefore, the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.
Hebrews 4:4
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;
Hebrews 4:10
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Acts 17:2
2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.


Exodus 20:12 Honor your father and your mother.

Matthew 19:19
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Ephesians 6:1
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Exodus 20:13
13 “You shall not murder.


Matthew 19:18 You shall not murder

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:14 You shall not commit adultery. Exodus 20:14

You shall not commit adultery

Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’


Romans 13:9

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:15 You shall not steal.
'You shall not steal'

Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’


Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


Exodus 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:17 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

If believers have the Holy Spirit within them individual why must scripture be the key to unlock what He teaches? If the Holy Spirit is God and has all attributes and powers of God and is intimate with us why must scripture which is profitable to us be the key to His designs?

Does God make his home with that which is sin so that sin will show up again and again or with that which has been made sinless so that He and his attributes will show up again and again?

Jesus was tempted by the Devil ( a spirit being) as if he ( Jesus) was carnal minded, of a carnal heart. It did not work.

Putting the Law within us seems to mean way more than just giving us the ability to read scripture. Then we've got some folks who say even with the Holy Scripture, we still can't read it. We must depend on those early Church leaders.
To me it means we don't need the written list any longer because now, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we just "know." It's like you don't need the list, because "Love" is the list. The Holy Spirit guides you to this commandment.
I know that's a terrible explanation. Maybe yours was better.

 

[Spineyman]

What happens to Christians who sin? Does it affect their salvation? Rewards? Christians who sin? Does it affect their salvation? I know it can affect them personally and their relationships with other men and the laws of the land, but what or how does it affect their relationship with God?
Realizing that Christ covered the "punishment" aspect of our sins. Suppose a saved person doesn't keep God's commandments? My mom thinks it means you get a smaller house in Heaven instead of a mansion. Maybe way down the street from God instead of closer to His place.

Christians who sin? Does it affect their salvation? Did Jesus Christ die for their sin? If He did, then they are bought and paid for. Past, present, and future!

I know it can affect them personally and their relationships with other men and the laws of the land, but what or how does it affect their relationship with God? There are for sure consequences for our sin, and it does cause separation from God. You lose your closeness with Him.

Realizing that Christ covered the "punishment" aspect of our sins. Suppose a saved person doesn't keep God's commandments? My mom thinks it means you get a smaller house in Heaven instead of a mansion. Maybe way down the street from God instead of closer to His place.

I personally believe it is far more than just rewards. If you are not being conformed into the Image of Jesus Christ, then it is very dangerous to say the least!

 

[Artfuldodger]

Here are a list of Old Testament Law that is also recorded in the New Testament

Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me.

Matthew 4:10, and You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him alone shall you serve.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.


Exodus 20:4 - 5 You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

1John 5:21, Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Acts 17:29
29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, and unbelieving . . . and idolaters . . . shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.


Exodus 20:7 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Matthew 6:9, Our Father Who is in heaven, hallowed be Your name.
1 Timothy 6:1
6 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.


Exodus 20:8 - 11 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Mark 2:27 - 28 The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath; Therefore, the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.
Hebrews 4:4
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;
Hebrews 4:10
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Acts 17:2
2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.


Exodus 20:12 Honor your father and your mother.

Matthew 19:19
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Ephesians 6:1
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Exodus 20:13
13 “You shall not murder.


Matthew 19:18 You shall not murder

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:14 You shall not commit adultery. Exodus 20:14

You shall not commit adultery

Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’


Romans 13:9

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:15 You shall not steal.
'You shall not steal'

Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’


Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


Exodus 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:17 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Can you show a list of New Testament verses that show the Law was done away with and grace prevails?

 

[Spineyman]

Can you show a list of New Testament verses that show the Law was done away with and grace prevails?

He did not do away with the Law. It is still fully intact, but He did fulfill the sacrificial part of the Law.


Matthew 5:17-20
Christ Fulfills the Law
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Artfuldodger]

He did not do away with the Law. It is still fully intact, but He did fulfill the sacrificial part of the Law.


Matthew 5:17-20
Christ Fulfills the Law
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Galatians 3:24 Go then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It's almost like the Law was replaced by grace. Like the Law was the guardian until Christ came. That we died to the Law when Jesus died or or we died with Jesus. We were reborn by grace.

It still goes back to death. Paul keeps saying we died with Jesus, we died to the Law.

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Galatians 2:19
For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God.

 

[gordon 2]

Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.



Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Galatians 3:24 Go then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

In a few nutshells there it is.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

This one is very interesting. Sin will exist, but it will not dominate a believer... because...

So God has made a way or ways out of being under "total" control of the evil that causes sin.

 

[Spineyman]

Consequences of Forgiven Sin

Article by
John Piper


Founder & Teacher, desiringGod.org

I was again overcome by the story of David’s sin against Uriah (murder) and Bathsheba (adultery) and God’s response in 2 Samuel 11-12. David acknowledges that the one who has done such a thing deserves to die (12:5). But in the end Nathan says, “The Lord also has taken away your sin; you shall not die” (12:13).
But though the sin is taken away and the death sentence removed, Nathan says, “Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die” (12:14). In spite of forgiveness some “penalty” for the sin remains. I put “penalty” in quotes because I think we must distinguish consequences of forgiven sin (v. 13) from consequences of unforgiven sin. The latter are properly called penalties. The former we should probably call “disciplinary consequences.”
That is, they are related to the sin, and they reflect the displeasure of God for the sin, but their aim is not retributive justice. They are not part of condemnation. The aim of the consequences of forgiven sin is not to settle the accounts demanded by retributive justice.
That’s what **** is for. There is a judgment whose purpose is to vindicate the right by paying back the wrong thus establishing equity in God’s kingdom of righteousness. This is done on the cross for those who are in Christ and it is done in **** for those who are not.
But the aim of God-sent consequences of forgiven sin is not to settle accounts demanded by retributive justice. The aim of the God-sent consequences of forgiven sin are (1) to demonstrate the exceeding evil of sin, (2) to show that God does not take sin lightly even when he lays aside his punishment, (3) to humble and sanctify the forgiven sinner.
Thus Hebrews 12:6 teaches that “the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
This is immensely important to teach in a day when there is an imbalance of emphasis on the Father’s forgiving tenderness to the exclusion of the Father’s forgiving toughness. Thus many people have no categories to handle the consequences of the sins in their lives except to become less biblical and God-centered in their interpretation of life.
By the power of truth and the Spirit we must learn to revel in the grace of God, the forgiveness of sins, the hope of glory, the joy of the Lord at the very same time that we may be suffering from the consequences of forgiven sin. We must not equate forgiveness with absence of painful impact. David’s life is a vivid illustration of this truth. May God give us the grace to learn it and live it.
Cherishing with you the tough and tender truth of God,
Pastor John
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/consequences-of-forgiven-sin

 

[Artfuldodger]

Ephesians 2:13-15
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.

In His flesh, Christ abolished the "Law of Commandments."

For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. There are no longer people who are strangers to the covenant.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Here are a list of Old Testament Law that is also recorded in the New Testament

Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me.

Matthew 4:10, and You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him alone shall you serve.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.


Exodus 20:4 - 5 You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

1John 5:21, Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Acts 17:29
29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, and unbelieving . . . and idolaters . . . shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.


Exodus 20:7 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Matthew 6:9, Our Father Who is in heaven, hallowed be Your name.
1 Timothy 6:1
6 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.


Exodus 20:8 - 11 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Mark 2:27 - 28 The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath; Therefore, the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.
Hebrews 4:4
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;
Hebrews 4:10
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Acts 17:2
2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.


Exodus 20:12 Honor your father and your mother.

Matthew 19:19
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Ephesians 6:1
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Exodus 20:13
13 “You shall not murder.


Matthew 19:18 You shall not murder

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:14 You shall not commit adultery. Exodus 20:14

You shall not commit adultery

Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’


Romans 13:9

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:15 You shall not steal.
'You shall not steal'

Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’


Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


Exodus 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Matthew 19:18
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Exodus 20:17 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Romans 13:9
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Maybe the key is to somehow balance the meaning of your list with the meaning of my list. I can at least admit or find both list yet you only could find one.

Do you have any comments of the verse list I presented in post 86?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Consequences of Forgiven Sin

Article by
John Piper


Founder & Teacher, desiringGod.org

I was again overcome by the story of David’s sin against Uriah (murder) and Bathsheba (adultery) and God’s response in 2 Samuel 11-12. David acknowledges that the one who has done such a thing deserves to die (12:5). But in the end Nathan says, “The Lord also has taken away your sin; you shall not die” (12:13).
But though the sin is taken away and the death sentence removed, Nathan says, “Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die” (12:14). In spite of forgiveness some “penalty” for the sin remains. I put “penalty” in quotes because I think we must distinguish consequences of forgiven sin (v. 13) from consequences of unforgiven sin. The latter are properly called penalties. The former we should probably call “disciplinary consequences.”
That is, they are related to the sin, and they reflect the displeasure of God for the sin, but their aim is not retributive justice. They are not part of condemnation. The aim of the consequences of forgiven sin is not to settle the accounts demanded by retributive justice.
That’s what **** is for. There is a judgment whose purpose is to vindicate the right by paying back the wrong thus establishing equity in God’s kingdom of righteousness. This is done on the cross for those who are in Christ and it is done in **** for those who are not.
But the aim of God-sent consequences of forgiven sin is not to settle accounts demanded by retributive justice. The aim of the God-sent consequences of forgiven sin are (1) to demonstrate the exceeding evil of sin, (2) to show that God does not take sin lightly even when he lays aside his punishment, (3) to humble and sanctify the forgiven sinner.
Thus Hebrews 12:6 teaches that “the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
This is immensely important to teach in a day when there is an imbalance of emphasis on the Father’s forgiving tenderness to the exclusion of the Father’s forgiving toughness. Thus many people have no categories to handle the consequences of the sins in their lives except to become less biblical and God-centered in their interpretation of life.
By the power of truth and the Spirit we must learn to revel in the grace of God, the forgiveness of sins, the hope of glory, the joy of the Lord at the very same time that we may be suffering from the consequences of forgiven sin. We must not equate forgiveness with absence of painful impact. David’s life is a vivid illustration of this truth. May God give us the grace to learn it and live it.
Cherishing with you the tough and tender truth of God,
Pastor John
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/consequences-of-forgiven-sin

Great lesson on the consequences of the sin.

 

[gordon 2]

Consequences of Forgiven Sin

Article by
John Piper


Founder & Teacher, desiringGod.org

I was again overcome by the story of David’s sin against Uriah (murder) and Bathsheba (adultery) and God’s response in 2 Samuel 11-12. David acknowledges that the one who has done such a thing deserves to die (12:5). But in the end Nathan says, “The Lord also has taken away your sin; you shall not die” (12:13).
But though the sin is taken away and the death sentence removed, Nathan says, “Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die” (12:14). In spite of forgiveness some “penalty” for the sin remains. I put “penalty” in quotes because I think we must distinguish consequences of forgiven sin (v. 13) from consequences of unforgiven sin. The latter are properly called penalties. The former we should probably call “disciplinary consequences.”
That is, they are related to the sin, and they reflect the displeasure of God for the sin, but their aim is not retributive justice. They are not part of condemnation. The aim of the consequences of forgiven sin is not to settle the accounts demanded by retributive justice.
That’s what **** is for. There is a judgment whose purpose is to vindicate the right by paying back the wrong thus establishing equity in God’s kingdom of righteousness. This is done on the cross for those who are in Christ and it is done in **** for those who are not.
But the aim of God-sent consequences of forgiven sin is not to settle accounts demanded by retributive justice. The aim of the God-sent consequences of forgiven sin are (1) to demonstrate the exceeding evil of sin, (2) to show that God does not take sin lightly even when he lays aside his punishment, (3) to humble and sanctify the forgiven sinner.
Thus Hebrews 12:6 teaches that “the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
This is immensely important to teach in a day when there is an imbalance of emphasis on the Father’s forgiving tenderness to the exclusion of the Father’s forgiving toughness. Thus many people have no categories to handle the consequences of the sins in their lives except to become less biblical and God-centered in their interpretation of life.
By the power of truth and the Spirit we must learn to revel in the grace of God, the forgiveness of sins, the hope of glory, the joy of the Lord at the very same time that we may be suffering from the consequences of forgiven sin. We must not equate forgiveness with absence of painful impact. David’s life is a vivid illustration of this truth. May God give us the grace to learn it and live it.
Cherishing with you the tough and tender truth of God,
Pastor John
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/consequences-of-forgiven-sin

Good example that there was forgiveness under the law. And I know that there are consequences even for the forgiven sin under the law and personally under grace. The turning of sinners to scripture is good. Of this there is not doubt. However under grace Jesus has set up also many other ways to go directly to God within the body of Christ due even the consequences of forgiven sin.

1Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.…
------------------

The remedy, the law of Christ is Christ himself.

 

[hummerpoo]

Ephesians 2:13-15
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.

In His flesh, Christ abolished the "Law of Commandments."

For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. There are no longer people who are strangers to the covenant.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Berean Study Bible … really?

 

[hummerpoo]

So, Art, I think Paul told the Ephesians that Christ "abolished" the "enmity" between the Jews and the Gentiles; which enmity grew from the "oracles of God" (Rm. 3:1,2) having been given to the Jews. What do you think?

 

[Artfuldodger]

So, Art, I think Paul told the Ephesians that Christ "abolished" the "enmity" between the Jews and the Gentiles; which enmity grew from the "oracles of God" (Rm. 3:1,2) having been given to the Jews. What do you think?

And thus the Borean Study Bible, lol. I figured that was what you were looking at. Anyway I used BibleHub, I thought I had grabbed NIV but I guess biblehub.com mixes it up if you grab a passage. I'll note that for future reference though.

Enmity removed? Backing up to verse 14, Christ dissolved the wall of hostility that separated the two groups. In verse 15 he abolished the enmity which "is" the Law or "that is, the law of commandments."

In my own words, what was the enmity if not the Law that divided? Now maybe this was done when Christ was slain before Creation, but matters not. I mean if you want to take it out of time, I'm OK with that.

More importantly, "Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death."

Perhaps the hostility that separated the Jew and Gentile was the Law of Moses and not the Law of God. The ordinances that would keep the Gentile separated from the Jew.
I guess that's possible but backing up to verse 12, it says ;

Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

So what was it that caused this enmity that separated the two groups? Better yet that cause one group to be strangers to the covenant of promise, having no hope, and without God?

Me speaking again, I have no idea. It's back to making everything Biblical spiritual vs seeing some things as still physical.
This wall of hostility, was it something physical that represented something spiritual? Is that really what Paul is saying every time he speaks of Israel vs the World or the Jew vs the Gentile? That there never was a Jew, Gentile, male or female concerning salvation?

Is it Spiritual Israel Paul continues to speak about in Romans 9? Then on to Romans 11? I think it's impossible to see Romans 11 as Paul speaking about anything other than physical Israel. I think that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

Since God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, none of our study really matters. Other than for our own pride maybe. Maybe we can't fathom God's thoughts, His mind and we want to.

 

[Artfuldodger]

So, Art, I think Paul told the Ephesians that Christ "abolished" the "enmity" between the Jews and the Gentiles; which enmity grew from the "oracles of God" (Rm. 3:1,2) having been given to the Jews. What do you think?

Romans 3:1-2? I guess my thoughts on that are in relation to this verse;

Romans 2:28-29
A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.

Maybe that was the enmity, which is the Law, that was removed by Christ on the Cross. The "written" code. Christ removed the "written" code that man used to praise other men.

When Christ died on the cross he removed that "written" code that man used to divide. Christ having put His law in our hearts, we don't need a written code. All it did was divide man. It was used to divide man.

I think when Christ put the law in our hearts, it circumscribed us, which made us Jewish.

 

[Artfuldodger]

My question even though Romans 11 says "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" would be why all the physical Jewish stuff and the Jewish law to begin with?

Why didn't God just present his salvation to the whole world to begin with without bringing in all the Jewish genealogy, King of the Jews, Laws of the Jews, etc.? Why make it appear to be about a physical Israel if it was really all about a Spiritual Israel to begin with?

I'm still trying to see what lesson God taught mankind in doing this. Plus the dividing wall it created. Then in Romans 11, Paul presents it as God's way of sending salvation the the Gentiles. The Jews loss was the worlds gain. This is why God chose a remnant of Jews and blinded the rest until the full number of Gentiles come in and then all of Israel will be saved.

It's just a really long and involved concept for God in the end to say;
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy."

 

[hummerpoo]

And thus the Borean Study Bible, lol. I figured that was what you were looking at. Anyway I used BibleHub, I thought I had grabbed NIV but I guess biblehub.com mixes it up if you grab a passage. I'll note that for future reference though.

Enmity removed? Backing up to verse 14, Christ dissolved the wall of hostility that separated the two groups. In verse 15 he abolished the enmity which "is" the Law or "that is, the law of commandments."

​

​

But how "is"?; in itself, or by the national pride applied to its accuisition (Rm. 2).

​

In my own words, what was the enmity if not the Law that divided? Now maybe this was done when Christ was slain before Creation, but matters not. I mean if you want to take it out of time, I'm OK with that.

More importantly, "Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death."

​

​

Amen

​

Perhaps the hostility that separated the Jew and Gentile was the Law of Moses and not the Law of God. The ordinances that would keep the Gentile separated from the Jew.

​

​

So Moses lied, he didn't receive it from God?

​

I guess that's possible but backing up to verse 12, it says ;

Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

​

​

Rm. 2:13-15 They did not have the revelation which had been given to the Jews.

wh

​

at was it that caused this enmity that separated the two groups? Better yet that cause one group to be strangers to the covenant of promise, having no hope, and without God?

​

​

The pride of the Jews.

​

Me speaking again, I have no idea. It's back to making everything Biblical spiritual vs seeing some things as still physical.

​

​

The physical "reveals" the spiritual, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively.

​

This wall of hostility, was it something physical that represented something spiritual?

​

​

I believe so.

​

Is that really what Paul is saying every time he speaks of Israel vs the World or the Jew vs the Gentile? That there never was a Jew, Gentile, male or female concerning salvation?

​

​

Yes

​

Is it Spiritual Israel Paul continues to speak about in Romans 9? Then on to Romans 11?

​

​

Yes, it says so. (9:7,8)

​

I think it's impossible to see Romans 11 as Paul speaking about anything other than physical Israel.

​

​

We have talked about it before; vss. 3-5 seals it.

​

I think that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

Since God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, none of our study really matters. Other than for our own pride maybe.

​

​

That happens when we start thinking that it is speaking about us, rather that speaking about us in relation to God.

​

Maybe we can't fathom God's thoughts, His mind and we want to.

​

Romans 3:1-2? I guess my thoughts on that are in relation to this verse;

Romans 2:28-29
A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.

​

​

That is the conclusion, the argument, which allows us to interpret the conclusion precedes.

​

Maybe that was the enmity, which is the Law, that was removed by Christ on the Cross. The "written" code. Christ removed the "written" code that man used to praise other men.

​

​

That would seem to work, but it makes God a liar. If the "Oracles of God"are freely given to both the Jews and the Gentiles the "barrier of the dividing wall" is removed and God is true.

​

When Christ died on the cross he removed that "written" code that man used to divide. Christ having put His law in our hearts, we don't need a written code. All it did was divide man. It was used to divide man.

​

​

The written code is revealatory, it is a gracious gift of God.

​

I think when Christ put the law in our hearts, it circumscribed us, which made us Jewish.

It makes us God's people. Neither Jew or Gentile, male or female, bond or slave, but God's people.

​

My question even though Romans 11 says "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" would be why all the physical Jewish stuff and the Jewish law to begin with?

​

​

Revelation, by God's grace.

​

Why didn't God just present his salvation to the whole world to begin with without bringing in all the Jewish genealogy, King of the Jews, Laws of the Jews, etc.? Why make it appear to be about a physical Israel if it was really all about a Spiritual Israel to begin with?

​

​

Rm. 9:20

​

I'm still trying to see what lesson God taught mankind in doing this. Plus the dividing wall it created. Then in Romans 11, Paul presents it as God's way of sending salvation the the Gentiles. The Jews loss was the worlds gain. This is why God chose a remnant of Jews and blinded the rest until the full number of Gentiles come in and then all of Israel will be saved.

​

​

Yes, the non-remnant were blinded (vs 7-10); but I have never been sure that vs.11f does not refer to the remnant.

​

It's just a really long and involved concept for God in the end to say;
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy."

​

​

Not so much if our view is consistantly Theocentric.


Now, having spent half my day responding to you, I'm done.
I'm going to watch some women play Australian Football.

 

[Artfuldodger]

But how "is"?; in itself, or by the national pride applied to its accuisition (Rm. 2).




Amen




So Moses lied, he didn't receive it from God?




Rm. 2:13-15 They did not have the revelation which had been given to the Jews.




The pride of the Jews.




The physical "reveals" the spiritual, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively.




I believe so.




Yes






Yes, it says so. (9:7,8)




We have talked about it before; vss. 3-5 seals it.



That happens when we start thinking that it is speaking about us, rather that speaking about us in relation to God.







That is the conclusion, the argument, which allows us to interpret the conclusion precedes.




That would seem to work, but it makes God a liar. If the "Oracles of God"are freely given to both the Jews and the Gentiles the "barrier of the dividing wall" is removed and God is true.




The written code is revealatory, it is a gracious gift of God.



It makes us God's people. Neither Jew or Gentile, male or female, bond or slave, but God's people.





Revelation, by God's grace.




Rm. 9:20




Yes, the non-remnant were blinded (vs 7-10); but I have never been sure that vs.11f does not refer to the remnant.




Not so much if our view is consistantly Theocentric.


Now, having spent half my day responding to you, I'm done.
I'm going to watch some women play Australian Football.

I appreaciate the time. I'll give it some more thought as it slowly sinks in. Enjoy the foodball!