United Methodists repeal longstanding ban on LGBTQ clergy

[SemperFiDawg]

In the Baptist culture I grew up in, drinking any kind of alcohol was a horrible sin. It was in the church covenant hanging on the wall beside the pulpit. Old women would be like: "Well, ol' Raiford might have raped and murdered and chopped up all them women, and stoled all the money his grandma had, and beat his daddy up with a baseball bat, and stomped little fluffy kittens, but at least he never was bad to drink."

I don't go to church no more.

I hope one day you can get past your animosity to the church you grew up in and realize that maybe, just maybe you've thrown the baby out with the bath water. There are some good churches out there and they do have much to offer you and your loved ones. Problem is, finding one can be a chore. If you lived closer to me I would invite you to mine. It's chock full of red-neck, back woods, blue collar folks that love nothing more than to hunt and fish. Blue jeans, baseball caps and work boots are Sunday morning attire. Show up in a shirt with a collar and you're gonna stick out like a sore thumb. Preacher drives an beat up 20 year old truck, lives in an 100 year old frame house and don't want anything better. Just common folks worshiping an uncommon God.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I hope one day you can get past your animosity to the church you grew up in and realize that maybe, just maybe you've thrown the baby out with the bath water. There are some good churches out there and they do have much to offer you and your loved ones. Problem is, finding one can be a chore. If you lived closer to me I would invite you to mine. It's chock full of red-neck, back woods, blue collar folks that love nothing more than to hunt and fish. Blue jeans, baseball caps and work boots are Sunday morning attire. Show up in a shirt with a collar and you're gonna stick out like a sore thumb. Preacher drives an beat up 20 year old truck, lives in an 100 year old frame house and don't want anything better. Just common folks worshiping an uncommon God.

I have made my peace with religion, and have found a church that works fine for me. Just me and my maker, no organization, no other people need be involved. I just simply can't and don't relate with the 2,000 year old angry desert religion from the other side of the world. I think there is more than one path to God. Find the one that makes sense to you.

 

[GeorgiaBob]

Wow. So the if a church voted to leave they had to forfeit the church building itself???? How did it come about that the UMC "owned" the building. Am I wrong in assuming those buildings were built by and funded by the local congregation and the generations of congregants before them? That seems like a really dirty move on the UMCs part. I guess I would have to ask how the pro-homosexual movement gained so much power in the UMC in the first place to be able to leverage such a move. Something with bad wrong a long time back.

The UMC has long been organized as a corporate entity. The "Trust" clause of the organization grants title of the buildings to the Annual Conference, which is usually a state or portion of a state and all of the individual congregations therein. The annual conference then grants control and use of the facilities to the congregation "in trust."

The Annual Conference of the UMC is the core structure of the denomination. The Annual Conference assigns clergy to the individual churches, sets salaries for pastors, and makes the rules for insurance, parsonages or housing allowances, and determines how much each congregation should pay to the Annual conference for their support. It isn't as "top down" as all that sounds because every congregation elects it's own representatives to serve as leaders of the Annual Conference.

No, you were not wrong assuming the local church built and paid for the building that the Annual Conference owns. But it had been a mutually beneficial system that allowed for significant insurance savings and provided help to smaller congregations as well as start up churches. Things began changing in the 1990s.

It wasn't about "pro-homosexual" influence gaining control. What began as a movement to "open" the local churches to people who were not active in church, later tried to encourage homosexuals to find a way to Christ. It nothing more sinister than "hate the sin but love the sinner." By the end of the 1990s that morphed into a campaign, "Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors."

The large urban churches also came into the picture about the same time, exercising increasing control over the Annual Conferences. It was that double strike, urban control and "Open Minds," that has split the UMC. The very liberal urban churches now control most Annual Conferences. The Annual Conferences select the delegates to the UMC's controlling body the General Conference.

And that is the short version of how a bunch of homo loving liberals took over the UMC in America. (But America only, all of the United Methodist Churches (through their Annual Conferences) everywhere else in the world have disavowed the actions of the US General Conference.

 

[Oldstick]

I grew up with an ordained UMC pastor as my Dad, in the South GA Conference. I am thankful he and Mom were able to reach his full retirement before being forced into making decisions that could endanger his career. He passed 12 years ago but Mom (nearly 90) still attends a small UMC near Aiken, that has a very good pastor, but he is adamant "There is NO civil war happening in this little church and we are not interested in participating in one!"

But bottom line is I think GABob gave the most accurate summary in post #25.

 

[GeorgiaBob]

Missionaries Travel From Africa To Bring The Gospel To United Methodist Church

U.S. — A group of devout Christian missionaries has arrived all the way from Africa to reach the United Methodist Church and tell them about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

babylonbee.com

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Missionaries Travel From Africa To Bring The Gospel To United Methodist Church

U.S. — A group of devout Christian missionaries has arrived all the way from Africa to reach the United Methodist Church and tell them about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

babylonbee.com

While the Bee meant it as satire, there is a lot of truth in that article. The US is no longer a Christian nation, and we have stopped sending pastors and missionaries out like we once did. I was speaking with a pastor this week about Honduras and other central America nations sending missionaries to the US now, instead of us sending missionaries there. Yeah, there are some short term medical missions and a few of the old time missionaries going out, but they are few and far between now days

 

[NE GA Pappy]

I have made my peace with religion, and have found a church that works fine for me. Just me and my maker, no organization, no other people need be involved. I just simply can't and don't relate with the 2,000 year old angry desert religion from the other side of the world. I think there is more than one path to God. Find the one that makes sense to you.

unless Jesus was a charlatan and a liar, there is only one path to God, and that would be thru Jesus. Accepting Him as King and Lord over your life is the only way.

 

[GeorgiaBob]

While the Bee meant it as satire, there is a lot of truth in that article. The US is no longer a Christian nation, and we have stopped sending pastors and missionaries out like we once did. I was speaking with a pastor this week about Honduras and other central America nations sending missionaries to the US now, instead of us sending missionaries there. Yeah, there are some short term medical missions and a few of the old time missionaries going out, but they are few and far between now days

It truly hearts my heart to admit that I believe you are correct.

 

[Danuwoa]

There is nothing new under the sun. Anything man has his hands in can and will be corrupted. I recognize this and don’t say, “Religion bad.” No, people are bad. Even good ones. It’s inescapable. Even really good people will disappoint you and let you down. I’ve disappointed more than my share of people and let a lot of people down. I’m not especially good. I don’t mean that. I’m not very good at all. But I realize just because humans do things they shouldn’t, that’s not on God. We chose to go our own way. I tried the whole thing of throwing off my faith and deciding to sort of create my own and do it my way. That did not work. People are not always good but God is.

I’m an old Marine and I remember the picture of a drill instructor glaring at a recruit with the caption, “We don’t promise you a rose garden.” God doesn’t either. In fact he tells us life is going to be hard and people will hate us because of him. Look what they did to his son. If you won’t just shut up about your faith you can stand by for anger, bitterness, and ridicule. I don’t care. That’s their problem and not mine. I don’t care about them more than my love for Jesus. Being a Christian isn’t a magic ticket to an easy life filled with nothing but fun, good times, and getting to do whatever makes you happy. In fact it’s quite the opposite sometimes. But nothing worth having is easy. And he made me tough enough to deal with it.

Corrupt preachers, churches etc have been around from the beginning. And it don’t come from God. So that only leaves one option.

 

[NCHillbilly]

The UMC has long been organized as a corporate entity. The "Trust" clause of the organization grants title of the buildings to the Annual Conference, which is usually a state or portion of a state and all of the individual congregations therein. The annual conference then grants control and use of the facilities to the congregation "in trust."

The Annual Conference of the UMC is the core structure of the denomination. The Annual Conference assigns clergy to the individual churches, sets salaries for pastors, and makes the rules for insurance, parsonages or housing allowances, and determines how much each congregation should pay to the Annual conference for their support. It isn't as "top down" as all that sounds because every congregation elects it's own representatives to serve as leaders of the Annual Conference.

No, you were not wrong assuming the local church built and paid for the building that the Annual Conference owns. But it had been a mutually beneficial system that allowed for significant insurance savings and provided help to smaller congregations as well as start up churches. Things began changing in the 1990s.

It wasn't about "pro-homosexual" influence gaining control. What began as a movement to "open" the local churches to people who were not active in church, later tried to encourage homosexuals to find a way to Christ. It nothing more sinister than "hate the sin but love the sinner." By the end of the 1990s that morphed into a campaign, "Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors."

The large urban churches also came into the picture about the same time, exercising increasing control over the Annual Conferences. It was that double strike, urban control and "Open Minds," that has split the UMC. The very liberal urban churches now control most Annual Conferences. The Annual Conferences select the delegates to the UMC's controlling body the General Conference.

And that is the short version of how a bunch of homo loving liberals took over the UMC in America. (But America only, all of the United Methodist Churches (through their Annual Conferences) everywhere else in the world have disavowed the actions of the US General Conference.

I worked for the UMC for about six years. It didn't make me want to attend their church, to say the least.

 

[NCHillbilly]

unless Jesus was a charlatan and a liar, there is only one path to God, and that would be thru Jesus. Accepting Him as King and Lord over your life is the only way.

You are entitled to your own opinion, as am I. I don't live my life according to a book written by middle eastern Hebrew desert dwellers 2000 years ago. I agree with many of the basic tenets in it, but I have absolutely nothing in common with them. They were from a different world, culture, and worldview. Meanwhile, I can feel myself that there is a higher power. I don't think you are qualified to tell me how I should interact with it any more than some dude from ancient Palestine who happened to own a pen and knew how to write was. If God exists and is all-powerful, you or me are stupid to think we understand it and speak for it. If you are correct, about 99% of the people ever living on earth are roasting in your imaginary hel!, no matter how sincerely they tried to live the right way according to what they grew up being taught. And you probably get satisfaction from that thought, sadly enough.
You can totally write me off as a viable or decent person now because I don't agree totally with your religious views. That's how it works, I reckon. And is one of the things I hate the most about organized religion in general. I don't feel that God would want you to think that way.

 

[NCHillbilly]

There is nothing new under the sun. Anything man has his hands in can and will be corrupted. I recognize this and don’t say, “Religion bad.” No, people are bad. Even good ones. It’s inescapable. Even really good people will disappoint you and let you down. I’ve disappointed more than my share of people and let a lot of people down. I’m not especially good. I don’t mean that. I’m not very good at all. But I realize just because humans do things they shouldn’t, that’s not on God. We chose to go our own way. I tried the whole thing of throwing off my faith and deciding to sort of create my own and do it my way. That did not work. People are not always good but God is.

I’m an old Marine and I remember the picture of a drill instructor glaring at a recruit with the caption, “We don’t promise you a rose garden.” God doesn’t either. In fact he tells us life is going to be hard and people will hate us because of him. Look what they did to his son. If you won’t just shut up about your faith you can stand by for anger, bitterness, and ridicule. I don’t care. That’s their problem and not mine. I don’t care about them more than my love for Jesus. Being a Christian isn’t a magic ticket to an easy life filled with nothing but fun, good times, and getting to do whatever makes you happy. In fact it’s quite the opposite sometimes. But nothing worth having is easy. And he made me tough enough to deal with it.

Corrupt preachers, churches etc have been around from the beginning. And it don’t come from God. So that only leaves one option.

Yep. You aren't one of the ones I refer to. You get it. I honestly respect your faith. I just wish most Christians would give me the same consideration. Instead, I become a dirty non-person who shall not be spoken of or interacted with to them the minute they find out I don't share all their beliefs. I have family members who won't give me the time of day because I don't go to their church. That's wrong.

 

[brutally honest]

Expect more of this:

First drag queen certified as a candidate for United Methodist ministry 'speaking in a new way to new people'

(RNS) — Isaac Simmons is the first openly gay man to be certified within the Illinois Great Rivers Conference and, as far as anyone can tell, the first drag queen certified in the United Methodist Church.

religionnews.com

 

[NCHillbilly]

Expect more of this:

First drag queen certified as a candidate for United Methodist ministry 'speaking in a new way to new people'

(RNS) — Isaac Simmons is the first openly gay man to be certified within the Illinois Great Rivers Conference and, as far as anyone can tell, the first drag queen certified in the United Methodist Church.

religionnews.com

 

[furtaker]

There is nothing new under the sun. Anything man has his hands in can and will be corrupted. I recognize this and don’t say, “Religion bad.” No, people are bad. Even good ones. It’s inescapable. Even really good people will disappoint you and let you down. I’ve disappointed more than my share of people and let a lot of people down. I’m not especially good. I don’t mean that. I’m not very good at all. But I realize just because humans do things they shouldn’t, that’s not on God. We chose to go our own way. I tried the whole thing of throwing off my faith and deciding to sort of create my own and do it my way. That did not work. People are not always good but God is.

I’m an old Marine and I remember the picture of a drill instructor glaring at a recruit with the caption, “We don’t promise you a rose garden.” God doesn’t either. In fact he tells us life is going to be hard and people will hate us because of him. Look what they did to his son. If you won’t just shut up about your faith you can stand by for anger, bitterness, and ridicule. I don’t care. That’s their problem and not mine. I don’t care about them more than my love for Jesus. Being a Christian isn’t a magic ticket to an easy life filled with nothing but fun, good times, and getting to do whatever makes you happy. In fact it’s quite the opposite sometimes. But nothing worth having is easy. And he made me tough enough to deal with it.

Corrupt preachers, churches etc have been around from the beginning. And it don’t come from God. So that only leaves one option.

Great post brother. And if somebody doesn't want to attend church, that's their business. I don't hold that against them one bit. I'm a Christian but I don't attend church very often anymore either, honestly. But nobody needs to blame their lack of church attendance on hypocrites, because there are hypocrites everywhere you go in life. Human beings are sinning hypocrites. Might as well quit your job and crawl under a rock because there are hypocrites where you work, too. And you probably have family members who are hypocrites. Christians have just been given eternal life as a gift because they aren't perfect and can't make it through the pearly gates on their own.

 

[Danuwoa]

Great post brother. And if somebody doesn't want to attend church, that's their business. I don't hold that against them one bit. I'm a Christian but I don't attend church very often anymore either, honestly. But nobody needs to blame their lack of church attendance on hypocrites, because there are hypocrites everywhere you go in life. Human beings are sinning hypocrites. Might as well quit your job and crawl under a rock because there are hypocrites where you work, too. And you probably have family members who are hypocrites. Christians have just been given eternal life as a gift because they aren't perfect and can't make it through the pearly gates on their own.

I love this. “I’m not going to church because that’s where the hypocrites are and I feel judged.” Really now? There are hypocrites at your job and everywhere else like you said. And guess where else each and every one of us will find a hypocrite? Staring at us in the mirror. All of us. That guy in the mirror is guilty of being judgmental too. All of us.

Whether or not somebody goes to church is their business. Whether or not they even believe is their business. Plenty of people I like a heck of a lot don’t believe what I believe. I’ve got no problems with that. I don’t have a problem until I’m told I had better keep my beliefs to myself. Cause that ain’t happening. I know for a fact I dont browbeat people or shame them. So when I feel like it’s relevant I’ll bring it up when I’ve a mind to. Nobody jas to listen or agree. If I can deal with being told my beliefs are nonsense and nothing but fairy tales made up by Hebrew goat herders and not start crying all over the place and telling everybody they can’t say that, a non believer can deal with what little I have to say about my beliefs.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I love this. “I’m not going to church because that’s where the hypocrites are and I feel judged.” Really now? There are hypocrites at your job and everywhere else like you said. And guess where else each and every one of us will find a hypocrite? Staring at us in the mirror. All of us. That guy in the mirror is guilty of being judgmental too. All of us.

Whether or not somebody goes to church is their business. Whether or not they even believe is their business. Plenty of people I like a heck of a lot don’t believe what I believe. I’ve got no problems with that. I don’t have a problem until I’m told I had better keep my beliefs to myself. Cause that ain’t happening. I know for a fact I dont browbeat people or shame them. So when I feel like it’s relevant I’ll bring it up when I’ve a mind to. Nobody jas to listen or agree. If I can deal with being told my beliefs are nonsense and nothing but fairy tales made up by Hebrew goat herders and not start crying all over the place and telling everybody they can’t say that, a non believer can deal with what little I have to say about my beliefs.

I am a hypocrite at times. You are a hypocrite at times. We all are at some times. Neither one of us think we are perfect or know all the answers, though. Some folks do. Those are the folks I have no respect for and don't want to be around.
I don't think I have the least bit of authority to tell other folks how to live or interact with God. I have never gotten that vibe from you, either. I think we all have our own path to connect with God, and that it's between us and Him/Her/It/Whatever it is. That's the difference in me and organized religion. Everybody else doesn't have to think just like I do to have a relationship with their creator.

I have always felt that you respected me as a person, even though we don't always agree on religion, and have never written me off as an untouchable hel-bound sinner who shouldn't be interacted with. I respect you a lot as a person, too.
I don't know if I'm right or wrong. I just have to go with what I feel is the truth as it applies to me, and nobody else. As I have said before, I have relatives who won't walk through my door or hardly speak to me at the store because I don't hold the exact same religious beliefs as they do. And I don't think that's the message Jesus taught. I'll admit that I don't know. They won't. They honestly think they know exactly everything they need to know about how to live and treat other people and what God thinks. I don't presume any such knowledge.

I can read the Bible, and I see a lot of stuff in there that I just can't relate to in my day -to-day life, simply because I don't live in the middle eastern desert in a agrarian society 2000 years ago. I can read Mooney's Sacred Formulas of the Cherokee, and find some stuff in there that I can relate with every time I walk out my back door into the woods, simply because I live in that same environment. Both are serious texts about serious religious beliefs of living people. Who am I to say that the Cherokee didn't find a meaningful way to connect with the same power that the Hebrews did, each within the context of their own environment and time and culture? Ditto the Hindus, Buddhists, etc. in their own corner of the world and societal culture? If God is out there, which I believe he is, maybe he reveals himself to different peoples in a way that they can understand and relate to their own lives? In the end, I simply don't know, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to say so. And I don't believe anybody else knows for certain any more than I do, either, no matter how much they think they do. I reckon we'll have to die to find out.

If you want to write me off as a friend and respectable, worthy human because my whole life and all my decisions thereof doesn't revolve around Biblical Jesus and Satan, that's your right. And you wouldn't be the first, and won't be the last. I'm very used to it by now.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I am a hypocrite at times. You are a hypocrite at times. We all are at some times. Neither one of us think we are perfect or know all the answers, though. Some folks do. Those are the folks I have no respect for and don't want to be around.
I don't think I have the least bit of authority to tell other folks how to live or interact with God. I have never gotten that vibe from you, either. I think we all have our own path to connect with God, and that it's between us and Him/Her/It/Whatever it is. That's the difference in me and organized religion. Everybody else doesn't have to think just like I do to have a relationship with their creator.

I have always felt that you respected me as a person, even though we don't always agree on religion, and have never written me off as an untouchable hel-bound sinner who shouldn't be interacted with. I respect you a lot as a person, too.
I don't know if I'm right or wrong. I just have to go with what I feel is the truth as it applies to me, and nobody else. As I have said before, I have relatives who won't walk through my door or hardly speak to me at the store because I don't hold the exact same religious beliefs as they do. And I don't think that's the message Jesus taught. I'll admit that I don't know. They won't. They honestly think they know exactly everything they need to know about how to live and treat other people and what God thinks. I don't presume any such knowledge.

I can read the Bible, and I see a lot of stuff in there that I just can't relate to in my day -to-day life, simply because I don't live in the middle eastern desert in a agrarian society 2000 years ago. I can read Mooney's Sacred Formulas of the Cherokee, and find some stuff in there that I can relate with every time I walk out my back door into the woods, simply because I live in that same environment. Both are serious texts about serious religious beliefs of living people. Who am I to say that the Cherokee didn't find a meaningful way to connect with the same power that the Hebrews did, each within the context of their own environment and time and culture? Ditto the Hindus, Buddhists, etc. in their own corner of the world and societal culture? If God is out there, which I believe he is, maybe he reveals himself to different peoples in a way that they can understand and relate to their own lives? In the end, I simply don't know, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to say so. And I don't believe anybody else knows for certain any more than I do, either, no matter how much they think they do. I reckon we'll have to die to find out.

One thing that bothers me is how some on here feel like your animosity towards the Church keeps you from "getting over it" so that you can return.
While I agree that you have animosity towards organized religion, so do I but it doesn't keep me away from what I believe. It just keeps me out of organized religion. I would also venture to say that I have animosity to certain aspects of Christianity itself. Like Paul saying women can't wear jewelry and fancy hair. I just don't feel like that applies to women in modern times.
I have animosity towards a lot of things in life but it isn't the reason I don't return to a past like or belief.

 

[NCHillbilly]

One thing that bothers me is how some all on here feel like your animosity towards the Church keeps you from "getting over it" so that you can return.
While I agree that you have animosity towards organized religion, so do I but it doesn't keep me away from what I believe.
I have animosity towards a lot of things in life but it isn't the reason I don't return to a past like or belief.

FIFY.
Yes. It is the attitude most people in organized religion have. Instead of respecting my personal religious beliefs, I am mentally and spiritually broken and need to get over my false beliefs and come back to the groupthink. I am quite at peace with my religious beliefs, and have no fear of roasting in hel. I don't return to organized religion simply because I don't believe in it, and it causes me more harm and negativity than good and positivity. I can respect and understand other folks who need it and thrive in it, but it's just personally not for me. Especially the judgemental aspects of it, which mostly define it. I think for many folks, it's a social thing to begin with.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Are there any members of the UMC following this discussion that we are all so concerned about? If I was in a denomination that did something like that and didn't like it, I'd change denominations. Even if your Church doesn't change, it still represents that denomination that you don't agree with.
What about other liberal changes in the Church that have evolved since the 50's?
Christians seem to evolve, even the conservative ones over decades but Islam never has.
I was just reading that some think the Catholic Church will return to being more conservative after the really old folk die off.