Well, I hate to say I told you so…

[buckpasser]

Was it you that said the TN study was 8 years in length? When did TN start a later beginning to the season to test the validity of the contrary argument that later starts should make a difference? Gil

They initially started it in some “perceived” decline counties for this experiment and later (due to political pressure) all of the research area was put into the delayed zone. I think you might enjoy the podcast I linked in the OP.

The turkey science guys also followed up with the next one being “if not the season, what’s the reason”. They basically regurgitate the TN podcast and “put to bed” any and all ability to hang on to the delayed season theory being helpful.

 

[sman]

Same podcast makes it clear that nest predication and hen survival are the key problems...they have strong undertones that baiting is fueling production of predators such as coons.

 

[buckpasser]

Same podcast makes it clear that nest predication and hen survival are the key problems...they have strong undertones that baiting is fueling production of predators such as coons.

Yes and yes. Unlike the turkey proctologist’s thoughts, this is a good common sense theory to test.

 

[Turkeytider]

I remember that. They (the DNR biologists) squandered perhaps the best opportunity they may ever have to discover something...we will never know.

I remember it too. That`s absolutely incredible. Somebody had to make the overt and conscious decision not to necropsy those birds, OR suppress the results.

 

[Turkeytider]

Same podcast makes it clear that nest predication and hen survival are the key problems...they have strong undertones that baiting is fueling production of predators such as coons.

Fill the woods with corn, what should one expect insofar as coons are concerned?

 

[Huntinfool]

I guess my question would be (and I really don't know the answer), does better access to food really mean more coons?

Better fed coons, for sure. But does corn = better birthing and survival rates for racoons? I'd be hard pressed to believe it's making that much of a difference in the population.

If that's the case, wouldn't we also see a corresponding boom in deer populations?

 

[buckpasser]

I guess my question would be (and I really don't know the answer), does better access to food really mean more coons?

Better fed coons, for sure. But does corn = better birthing and survival rates for racoons? I'd be hard pressed to believe it's making that much of a difference in the population.

If that's the case, wouldn't we also see a corresponding boom in deer populations?

Possibly, but do coon kits need the same habitat as fawns to be successfully raised? I don’t pretend to know if feeders/feeding are the cause of lower turkey numbers, but I can’t see how they’re helping turkeys in any way.

 

[Gaswamp]

I guess my question would be (and I really don't know the answer), does better access to food really mean more coons?

Better fed coons, for sure. But does corn = better birthing and survival rates for racoons? I'd be hard pressed to believe it's making that much of a difference in the population.

If that's the case, wouldn't we also see a corresponding boom in deer populations?

I have heard the scientists in buckpasser link state that Deer eat less than 40%, might have been 20, at a feed sight. Raccoons, hogs, squirells, and turkeys eat the majority of feed especially corn

 

[GLS]

Years ago I listened to a DNR biologist on O'Neil in the Morning, while driving to the turkey woods. He was asked about the recent (at that time) legalization of deer baiting. He was uncomfortable with the question, but his response was to the point: "This was not DNR's decision. This was a political decision by the legislature." Quote might not be exact, but that was the message. Gil

 

[Huntinfool]

I have heard the scientists in buckpasser link state that Deer eat less than 40%, might have been 20, at a feed sight. Raccoons, hogs, squirells, and turkeys eat the majority of feed especially corn

That's definitely not the case at my feeders. I don't have exclusion feeders. Coons can get to it easily.

Yes, they eat a lot. But, once the deer find it, it's gone in a hurry!

I'm certainly not making the case that coons are a major issue for turkey nests. I believe they are a huge issue. I'm just not sure I see the link between baiting laws and the decline in turkey populations.

I will admit, though, that the most severe decline in turkey populations does roughly correspond to the time baiting was allowed in the northern zone.

 

[Dustin Pate]

We found 8 dead gobblers on our property in one season a few years ago, only gobblers, no hens, none were killed from predation. Two of the birds were turned over to DNR for testing. It turned political and the investigation was shut down. I gave up after that. We’ve had a 1 bird limit for 6 years. None were killed this year, can’t hardly find a track or get a picture of a turkey anymore and we keep dozens of cameras out.

That is just insanity and screams something was going on that they knew and didn't want to disclose.

 

[buckpasser]

That's definitely not the case at my feeders. I don't have exclusion feeders. Coons can get to it easily.

Yes, they eat a lot. But, once the deer find it, it's gone in a hurry!

I'm certainly not making the case that coons are a major issue for turkey nests. I believe they are a huge issue. I'm just not sure I see the link between baiting laws and the decline in turkey populations.

I will admit, though, that the most severe decline in turkey populations does roughly correspond to the time baiting was allowed in the northern zone.

In the research that I’ve reviewed, they seem to love to test spin feeders, yet sell it as “feeders”. I run 16 gravity feeders year round for work, and they are camera surveilled nearly all the time. Coons are in the single digit recipients at best here I can assure you. They are present, but not daily. They are also trapped at feed stations, lending me an easy option for depletion of their populations each winter.

The terms and practices of “feeders” has been too broad in research so far IMO, especially as they relate to turkeys and predators.

 

[buckpasser]

We found 8 dead gobblers on our property in one season a few years ago, only gobblers, no hens, none were killed from predation. Two of the birds were turned over to DNR for testing. It turned political and the investigation was shut down. I gave up after that. We’ve had a 1 bird limit for 6 years. None were killed this year, can’t hardly find a track or get a picture of a turkey anymore and we keep dozens of cameras out.

I remember closely following your thread back then and being greatly disappointed! To happen up on fresh dead Toms was a sweet opportunity that they squandered.

 

[buckpasser]

From the discussion portion of the TN study:

Our models for all reproductive rates examined did not support the later start date hypothesis and showed no evidence that the later start date for the Tennessee spring hunting season impacted seasonal productivity. We saw no change in productivity in delayed counties, whether the hunting season began just prior to peak nest initiation (before the season delay) or just prior to peak nest incubation initiation (after the season delay). Based on the later-start date hypothesis, the top two reproductive rates that we would have expected to change included the proportion of hens nesting (nesting rate), and hatchability (Table 1), neither of which were impacted by the start date of the spring hunting season. There was a weak relationship between nesting chronology and the season start date (pInteraction, 418 = .07), but this was represented by only 1 or 2 days in mean IID, which was well within the annual variation.

These are just words to most readers, but they’re music to my ears!