Who is at fault and how can it be fixed.

[SonyaS]

It would seem that the kennel, knowing the dogs did not get along, would change where or how they managed them. But, it is hard to "armchair QB" this.

Yeah well seeing as how I paid them plenty to keep that dog safe, and they KNEW there was an aggression issue, I can armchair quarterback this quite easily. One of the main reasons I boarded that dog is because I have a very male aggressive Anatolian, he must be separated from my other males. I paid plenty to board that coonhound so he would be safe, and when I found out he got torn up by a pit when they KNEW there was a problem I was livid. If I wanted to risk him getting torn up I could have kept him here and not paid any boarding fees!

One thing I can tell you is that if this coonhound is a trained hunter, the instincts that he was born with are honed and fine tuned with training, and he will be harder to manage as a pet. For instance, when my dogs are not in their kennels they go to work. Not necessary for me to do anything to tell them to hunt.... it is in their blood and their training.

Your coonhound might be the same and might do well rehomed into a hunting home. If he spends his time trying to leave his situation where a "normal" dog might be very happy, he may have needs that cannot be met as a pet. Do you have any friends who hunt dogs like him? One hunt and they would know if he is a trained dog.

I have never had a hunting dog before, he is an enigma, I can't tell whether he was kept as a hunting dog or just a pet with a high prey drive. He definitely has a strong hunting drive, plus when the sun goes down he is ready to jump in the back of the suburban and go! Yet at the same time, he took to dog beds and chewies instantly. He also thought about counter surfing for a while before he actually did it. His canine social skills are not very polished, though he is trying hard to make friends with the other canines (so far only let loose with the girls, they won't play with him yet, they are still explaining the rules of polite behavior to him).

He is not being held captive against his will, this is the dog that gave sad eyes as he sat across the road when he first showed up. He also hollered all day when I wouldn't let him in the fenced yard (yeah I did give him water and feed him and tell him it would be okay....that might have contributed to the hollering outside of the fence).

Do kenneled hunting dogs have poor canine social skills? Are they only let out to hunt and focus on prey without learning how to get along with other canines in a pack situation? Knowing the folks around this area I question that the dog was kept as an isolated pet all these years.

Hotwire, even as set up for horses, is kinder than what the dogs can get into if they get loose. Good luck containing that big coonhound

I will take a picture or two for you and upload it here. My other pictures have disappeared (computer crashed and I did not have a complete back up of pictures).

I have a pet hotwire system (not a system for livestock, I ain't trying to traumatize or kill my dogs, just keep them safe).

Your kennels are nice and look quite expensive. Metal is very sanitary. I trust you don't keep young dogs on those metal floors.

 

[JustUs4All]

Hi folks. Here is my background. I grew up with hunting dogs and presently own 8. There are two pitty mix puppies hanging out at the farm awaiting a ride to their new homes in Massachusetts. They were abandoned at 5 weeks fo age on the next farm over when bad renters were moved along. I am retired now and transport a lot of rescue dogs.

The overpopulation problem will not be solved without massive government intervention. With that intervention it will only be solved in the more urban areas. I am completely against more government. A lot of the laws that get passed have unintended consequences. Many of the laws intended to prevent cruelty to animals in some cases cause it.

Side question: Do those radio fence collars work well with hunting dogs? I only have 5 foot fences which work fine for my dogs but this coonhound goes nuts if he smells wildlife in the woods and he WILL climb the fence.

I used to use the radio fence system but gave up when my dogs kept chewing up the collars, if I put it back up for him would it fix the fence worries?

That fence will probably hold him if you put one strand of electric fence around the top of the fence and one about 12 inches off the ground around the bottom.

 

[JuliaH]

In your case, and knowing what you know, I might be hard to get along with too for that kennel. And I don't think I would ever pay that much to board a dog for a month... but one does what one has to do to try to make things work.

I have never had a hunting dog before, he is an enigma, I can't tell whether he was kept as a hunting dog or just a pet with a high prey drive. He definitely has a strong hunting drive, plus when the sun goes down he is ready to jump in the back of the suburban and go! Yet at the same time, he took to dog beds and chewies instantly. He also thought about counter surfing for a while before he actually did it. His canine social skills are not very polished, though he is trying hard to make friends with the other canines (so far only let loose with the girls, they won't play with him yet, they are still explaining the rules of polite behavior to him).

He is not being held captive against his will, this is the dog that gave sad eyes as he sat across the road when he first showed up. He also hollered all day when I wouldn't let him in the fenced yard (yeah I did give him water and feed him and tell him it would be okay....that might have contributed to the hollering outside of the fence).

Do kenneled hunting dogs have poor canine social skills? Are they only let out to hunt and focus on prey without learning how to get along with other canines in a pack situation? Knowing the folks around this area I question that the dog was kept as an isolated pet all these years.

Sad eyes = hound = normal for them And if he was lost in a hunt, he was probably very glad to see a friendly face. If he was dropped off (another possibility) he was still glad to see a friendly face.

With what you are telling me, he is probably a trained dog... and if he doesn't have good doggy social skills he is either pretty aggressive or has been kenneled (which is what I think has been the case). When I turn mine out to play I am careful because some of them will challenge others at times... they will hunt together (in pairs is how they compete with strange dogs, but they are focused on the hunt and not on one another). I don't know about hounds so much, but my dogs are kenneled individually. No arguments over food or toys or territory. They are able to communicate but not in a pack situation. So, unless raised in the house and kept in the house their skills could be lacking.

I know folks with several dogs in the house with good house manners, but my hubby doesn't like 2 little tiny dogs in the house much less all my bird dogs So, kennels... it is still good and they deal with it, but they don't have the same social skills.

Even if I am out there and let them out to play, or put some that I can't trust on a runner so they can let off the steam, or take them out with their e-collar so they can really run, they are not ever all out at the same time. They would get in trouble, and that is not good.

I have a pet hotwire system (not a system for livestock, I ain't trying to traumatize or kill my dogs, just keep them safe).

Your kennels are nice and look quite expensive. Metal is very sanitary. I trust you don't keep young dogs on those metal floors.

Ok, first the hotwire system. You won't kill them with a livestock system, but it WILL make them respect the fence. Won't traumatize them either, except to the extent that they will understand the fence bites when you touch it... so they won't touch it after they have tried it once or twice.

It would be harder on you than on them when the fence bites, but it would be over with quickly My friend that has the electric fence kennel (big kennel with plenty of room so they don't accidently touch the wire) has a livestock system (not the one made for many miles, but a 2-5 mile fencer) and I was surprised that the dog learned quickly and then left it alone. They are going to yelp like it killed them the first time, and that is hard to let happen, but then they are okay and understand.

Small dogs and pets.... wouldn't use it. Big dogs such as his Catahoulas and maybe a coonhound that won't listen to less... it probably would work fine Sure does work for those Catahoulas.

And yes, my dogs grow up in kennels with cement floors. Sanitary and easily cleaned, and pups allowed out to play twice a day for a good amount of time. They have a dog house and plenty to eat, fresh water and clean kennel (with young pups cleaned often...lol). They look forward to me coming to let them out but run right back in and happy when time to eat after they run and play a while.

There are crates in the barn in case of puppy baths or REALLY bad weather, but I have never had to use them and the dogs think they are in jail in the barn, so they are better in the kennel except in case of real problems or bath time for pups. (Every pup usually gets a bath before going to new homes.)

Julia

 

[JuliaH]

Hi Just

Glad to have more voices in this conversation

I agree with no more laws and regs. They would have the effect of gun control, only the criminals would have guns and only those under the radar would keep the problems alive with dogs too. I used to watch the rescue programs on Animal Planet, but no more... and all that pretty much in cities while giving breeders a bad rap. Ugh.

I don't transport rescues, but would be glad to do it if I was paid for trip. Would do it free if gas prices were not an issue.

I own 9 bird dogs.... 6 GSP and 3 Brittanys. One spayed female stays around the house runs loose most of the time unless I am working the dogs, then I put her in a kennel so she can't chase off the birds the others are supposed to point...lol. Everyone else is in kennels. Oh... also have a Chihuahua and a really old Toy Fox Terrier (I think) in the house

Julia

 

[SonyaS]

My mixed breed little rescue female was afraid to leave the house for 2 weeks after the "pet" fence bit her. : ) She didn't know what it was exactly but she KNEW there was something evil out there.

I tend to think this dog was a kenneled hunting dog too, just emailed the local Coonhound hunting club to ask if I could have him tested. I would like to know and would be interested in seeing him do his thing (providing one of the other members would rent out one of those fancy GPS trackers).

Hard surfaces (metal/cement) and young dogs aren't good. Causes joint damage, their bones are soft. Dogs should not be run on cement or other hard surfaces until at least 18 months of age. They will survive, they may do okay, but it causes damage that is evident to the trained eye. Part of the sharing info thing. Once they are safe from puppy diseases put them on natural surfaces.

 

[JuliaH]

I will look into the hard surfaces thing, but I don't ever do a dirt kennel. Had to do that before I got the cement and they are hard to keep clean and tend to get smelly after a time. Poop can be picked up... the urine smell will get in there tho, even with shavings. Phoebe, the 14 year old I shared pictures of and a 10 yr old I have here now have been on cement all their lives... and they are fine. But you have raised a valid concern and I will check into it By the way, Phoebe lived 1 month past her 14th birthday. She was a bit senile but still pointed birds

Thanks for the comments on cement. Do you have any links to articles on it?

And do get your coonhound figured out. I went back and looked at the pictures of him and he has a kind eye..

Julia

My mixed breed little rescue female was afraid to leave the house for 2 weeks after the "pet" fence bit her. : ) She didn't know what it was exactly but she KNEW there was something evil out there.

I tend to think this dog was a kenneled hunting dog too, just emailed the local Coonhound hunting club to ask if I could have him tested. I would like to know and would be interested in seeing him do his thing (providing one of the other members would rent out one of those fancy GPS trackers).

Hard surfaces (metal/cement) and young dogs aren't good. Causes joint damage, their bones are soft. Dogs should not be run on cement or other hard surfaces until at least 18 months of age. They will survive, they may do okay, but it causes damage that is evident to the trained eye. Part of the sharing info thing. Once they are safe from puppy diseases put them on natural surfaces.

 

[DukTruk]

Admittedly, I didn't read every reply on this thread. When I read the original post, I knew there was going to be tons of them. Here's my 2 cents.

1. You have already addressed the issue with Rusty not being "trustworthy" enough to be left loose unattended. Great job, most people think the dog will eventually "figure it out".

2. When we sell a pup, they are all microchipped BEFORE they are sold. This is one less thing that the owner has to do, but the primary reason is for the good of the dog. When we put the microchip in, we put our kennel down as the primary owner. That way if theres ever an issue with the dog being left at a pound, etc we get contacted as the owner, and the dog is returned to us. To me, this goes along with what a responsible breeder does. There is way too much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into these dogs for them to be left at a pound somewhere.

 

[JuliaH]

Hi Duk,

On #1... I cannot imagine the dogs ever figuring it out once they find the fun stuff. They cannot understand what happens when they get hit by some driver when flying across the highway to have some fun.

On #2... I have resisted this. You have probably read that I have. Partly from cost, and partly from Rusty not being found with his. Now, I would love to hear if you have ever been able to find any of your pups through using microchip. My reasoning may be flawed, and I am open at least a little on it...

#3....I had a lot of trepidation opening this thread. Usually breeders and rescuers wind up fighting over such simple things... sort of like the "What kind of dog food should I feed" threads...lol.

I have learned. I hope Sonya has too. I hope we have each gained a friend through the conversation and I am glad people are reading...

So, maybe it will open up even more conversation. Microchipping is a good place to open my mind some more. If it truly helps, it will be a good thing to know

Julia

Admittedly, I didn't read every reply on this thread. When I read the original post, I knew there was going to be tons of them. Here's my 2 cents.

1. You have already addressed the issue with Rusty not being "trustworthy" enough to be left loose unattended. Great job, most people think the dog will eventually "figure it out".

2. When we sell a pup, they are all microchipped BEFORE they are sold. This is one less thing that the owner has to do, but the primary reason is for the good of the dog. When we put the microchip in, we put our kennel down as the primary owner. That way if theres ever an issue with the dog being left at a pound, etc we get contacted as the owner, and the dog is returned to us. To me, this goes along with what a responsible breeder does. There is way too much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into these dogs for them to be left at a pound somewhere.

 

[SonyaS]

Thanks for the comments on cement. Do you have any links to articles on it?

I can't find any full articles but found some vet references to it. It is frequently referenced on sites catering to breeds with bone problems (labs, shepherds) but I was also told about it when I got our Doberman show pups and Dobies are pretty sound.

No running on cement until they are 18 months old (when the growth plates close). Apparently it causes obvious changes, one time in a confirmation class the teacher watched one of the dogs go around the ring and she immediately asked the owner if the dog was on cement, the owner said yes, her yard was paved, the teacher told her the it was causing damage and she needed to get the dog on softer surfaces.

It probably isn't a big deal for little pups (under 10 weeks) as long as they are not slipping and sliding around, but for older pups I would worry about possible long term effects.

I have found in my practice that puppies who slip, trip, and fall regularly are much more inclined to develop bone growth problems, so covering those slick floors is an important part of reducing trauma to the growth plates.

I also don't recommend keeping puppies housed on hard surfaces like concrete. -- Dr. Becker, DVM
http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...wth-conditions-in-puppies-and-young-dogs.aspx

As Lab owners, we are all told not to have our Lab puppy run or walk on hard surfaces for long periods of time as this may cause trauma or injury to the puppy's joints. http://www.8pawsup.com/articles/labsocd.html

Also, preventing your puppy from doing a lot of jumping or running on hard surfaces before his growth plates close help reduce the risk of developing a skeletal disorder. -- Debra Eldredge, D.V.M. http://www.netplaces.com/dog-health/dog-anatomy/bones-and-joints.htm

And do get your coonhound figured out. I went back and looked at the pictures of him and he has a kind eye..

He is a good boy, he has dropped a few pounds and I think he is quite nice looking, he is higher energy and bouncier than my other dogs, particularly the seniors, so i have to take things slowly. He is easy for me to handle (my Anatolian is twice his size, so this guy seems small in comparison) but the old dogs are another matter.

Biggest challenge at the moment is that he is starting to holler for attention when crated, he is also barking incessantly at the elderly blind/deaf cocker and I am wondering if the elderly dog is triggering his prey drive (he doesn't bark at any of the others). I have a Dogra Platinum collar that I have never used, this may be the time to start using it (on the lowest setting, or if he has been trained with one the pager feature may be nearly enough).

 

[SonyaS]

2. When we sell a pup, they are all microchipped BEFORE they are sold. This is one less thing that the owner has to do, but the primary reason is for the good of the dog. When we put the microchip in, we put our kennel down as the primary owner. That way if theres ever an issue with the dog being left at a pound, etc we get contacted as the owner, and the dog is returned to us. To me, this goes along with what a responsible breeder does. There is way too much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into these dogs for them to be left at a pound somewhere.

Yeah rescue groups usually chip them for that very reason, as a safety net in case they are ever dumped. I think it is the responsible thing to do for the dog's sake.

I also planned to have this dog chipped if he got adopted, I didn't put all the effort and cash into this dog to have him "turned out" like trash a year or two from now.

 

[scbulldog]

My mixed breed little rescue female was afraid to leave the house for 2 weeks after
Hard surfaces (metal/cement) and young dogs aren't good. Causes joint damage, their bones are soft. Dogs should not be run on cement or other hard surfaces until at least 18 months of age. They will survive, they may do okay, but it causes damage that is evident to the trained eye. Part of the sharing info thing. Once they are safe from puppy diseases put them on natural surfaces.

This is nonsense. Were did your eye get trained to detect joint and bone damage? Earleir you stated the South is decdes behind California as far as dog legislation goes, that is also nonsense. I lived in California when I was in the USMC, and it is about as close to a police state as we have in the USA. If you enjoy government intrusion in your life, they have plenty of houses for sale. I understand you like helping dogs, good for you. But dogs, just like chickens, cows and hogs are animals. You working in a rescue does not give you the right to tell other folks what to do with there animal. You also have very condesending shrill tone that makes what ever message you are trying to get across, much less palatable.

 

[SonyaS]

This is nonsense. Were did your eye get trained to detect joint and bone damage?

Obviously you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I did not say that *I* could tell the difference, I said the expert teaching a confirmation class saw it immediately, called it out, and was 100% correct.

In case you are not aware, proper gait is extremely important in the show ring, the judges are trained to identify and select dogs that are structurally sound. If THEY can tell at a glance and immediately pick out the dog that was raised on cement then obviously it has a very real effect.

I will also point out that no one is forcing you to read my posts, feel free to utilize the ignore feature.

 

[grouper throat]

This is nonsense. Were did your eye get trained to detect joint and bone damage? Earleir you stated the South is decdes behind California as far as dog legislation goes, that is also nonsense. I lived in California when I was in the USMC, and it is about as close to a police state as we have in the USA. If you enjoy government intrusion in your life, they have plenty of houses for sale. I understand you like helping dogs, good for you. But dogs, just like chickens, cows and hogs are animals. You working in a rescue does not give you the right to tell other folks what to do with there animal. You also have very condesending shrill tone that makes what ever message you are trying to get across, much less palatable.

I agree. The reason you've never had many hunting dog rescues is we tend to be more responsible for our dogs. I for one won't dump it off or let it suffer.

Your wal-Mart parking lot accidental breeding folks are the ones you want. Most of the litters of bred females I know of are nearly all sold/spoken for before they even come into the world.

 

[JuliaH]

We need to keep our cool Disagreement is almost a for sure thing, but we can handle it

As to perfect gait in the show ring, keep in mind that the show animals (I had horses, both performance and halter Arabians) tend to go to extremes. If a dished face is beautiful with that gorgeous big eye and tippy ears, lets breed it better and better.... but read into better as more extreme. Long neck, big trot, okay... lets slip in some .... er.... well, it worked (now DNA testing stops that). There are good things about show animals and there are other things too.

As to living on cement, Sadie and Annie and Rose have been on it for a long time... Annie and Sadie were raised on it (Annie is 4 now and Sadie is 6) and Rose has been on cement for about 4-5 years (she is 6). All are tested for hips and all are good results. As to gait and ability, they can run and do... no lameness issues ever. Sometimes we develop a callous, but that's about it.

I am not discounting that problems can happen, and I will read, but nothing is written in stone, except that they are dogs and we are people who care about them.

With the exception of a few, grouper is right about hunting dog people, specially that use their dogs for hunting or trialing. Those dogs require training and time spent, and are partners with their owners. Their value is high, and not all monetary. Just look at the thread about the dog that got shot.... that dog was loved, and not just as a pet. He was his owner's friend and hunting partner too.

Julia

 

[SonyaS]

I agree. The reason you've never had many hunting dog rescues is we tend to be more responsible for our dogs. I for one won't dump it off or let it suffer.

Statistically there are less hunting dogs than other more popular pet breeds. One rescue site has over 70 Coonhounds listed for adoption, most were found dumped or pulled out of shelters, and most all look purebred to me: http://www.coonhoundrescue.com/rescuedogs.html

 

[JuliaH]

There are plenty at the GSP and Brittany and other hunting dog rescues too, but most of those I bet are from pet homes... I have not researched it, but when you have thousands in training and price of dog you care for it pretty well generally.

Consider my Sam. This is his second season off trialing. Trainer is $500 a month, pretty reasonable for what I am getting. Plus cost of travel, training birds, entry fees. So by the time he is a FC I will have about $8000 in him (including purchase price). I can guarantee he will never make it to a rescue or shelter as long as I am alive. If something happens to me my hubby and my will spell out where they all go, or what is to happen.

I like breed rescues. When you consider the coonhound rescue or other breed specific rescues for hunting dogs, and rescues for mixed breeds, the numbers will generally be significantly different.

Julia

Statistically there are less hunting dogs than other more popular pet breeds. One rescue site has over 70 Coonhounds listed for adoption, most were found dumped or pulled out of shelters, and most all look purebred to me: http://www.coonhoundrescue.com/rescuedogs.html

 

[scbulldog]

Obviously you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I did not say that *I* could tell the difference, I said the expert teaching a confirmation class saw it immediately, called it out, and was 100% correct.

In case you are not aware, proper gait is extremely important in the show ring, the judges are trained to identify and select dogs that are structurally sound. If THEY can tell at a glance and immediately pick out the dog that was raised on cement then obviously it has a very real effect.

I will also point out that no one is forcing you to read my posts, feel free to utilize the ignore feature.

I can see you want attention so I am not going to bite any more. I can see by your earlier comment about taking from school lunches to pay for pets, that you are either out in left field, or you want a response. Not interested in arguing with some one like you. If you think a show judge is credible, more power to you. People who breed or use performence dogs generally usually regard show dogs as a joke. Good luck with that

 

[Tag-a-long]

2. When we sell a pup, they are all microchipped BEFORE they are sold. This is one less thing that the owner has to do, but the primary reason is for the good of the dog. When we put the microchip in, we put our kennel down as the primary owner. That way if theres ever an issue with the dog being left at a pound, etc we get contacted as the owner, and the dog is returned to us. To me, this goes along with what a responsible breeder does. There is way too much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into these dogs for them to be left at a pound somewhere.

Hi Duk,

On #2... I have resisted this. You have probably read that I have. Partly from cost, and partly from Rusty not being found with his. Now, I would love to hear if you have ever been able to find any of your pups through using microchip. My reasoning may be flawed, and I am open at least a little on it...

So, maybe it will open up even more conversation. Microchipping is a good place to open my mind some more. If it truly helps, it will be a good thing to know

Julia

Julia, both my dogs were chipped by the breeder but if they had not been I would have done so shortly after bringing them home. I've heard horror stories about shelters not checking (or not checking thoroughly enough, some times they migrate!). There is always a chance they won't find it, or even look for it, if it's there. But if he doesn't have one, there is 100% chance they won't find it.

I look at it like a cheap insurance policy. For $40-$50 it's just one more thing I can do to stack the odds in my favor. As recently as 4 years ago, my small town vet didn't even offer the service and our local animal shelter had just gotten their first scanner. I think it'll become more effective as chipping becomes more commonplace.

We use an e-collar during training but outside that our two very rarely have a collar on. They are house dogs, they don't go outside unsupervised and once you progress to the more the advanced levels, they are not allowed to wear a collar at a hunt test. My logic has always been that I want test day to be like any other day at the office. If the only time he ever goes 'naked' is on test day it won't take long for him to put two and two together. This logic maybe somewhat flawed and a collar with a nameplate may not be such a bad idea in certain situations. I still think having one on him all the time is opening the door to a 'test wise' dog but there may be room for compromise.

The other points in this thread, I ain't touching with a 10 ft pole but I do applaud you for your patience and open mindedness. You're a better woman than I.

 

[JuliaH]

Thanks Tag

When selling a pup, I send the buyer home with a conversation on keeping their baby safe, including microchipping when they take it to the vet right after they get it for follow up vaccines and check up.

My puppy conversation includes a chat about the prevalence of parvo and the need for boosters of its baby shots that start here. We also talk about dog food, taking a new pup to dog parks and Petsmart, etc., exercise needs and the invitation to call me anytime they need to, and spay/neuter if their pup is going to be a personal pet as well as weekend hunter.

I will look into microchipping before the pups leave. There are some folks here who do microchip clinics and AKC has a microchip program, so it could be do-able for me

If it helps, and not sure if it is the same for different breeds, my dogs' collars are always on. E-collar used in training and my trainer uses a tracking collar on field trial dogs. Even on horseback, it doesn't take a dog long to get out of sight in a trial. A GSP in the brush can be hard to see, too. But the collar has not yet caused a problem in a test because there is no change from at home to the test or trial.

I see you have a gorgeous lab in your avatar, and I have never seen a hunt test for them, so it sure could be different. One of these days I would love to watch beagles work too, but have not seen more than video yet.

I got into this conversation to try to build a bridge. One rescue here at home and I have a good understanding, and she knows my ways. I respect her and her rescue because I know how she does it. I would love to see more communication among breeders and rescues and even on forums not using heavy handed ways for breeders, but it won't always happen

As talked about earlier, there outta be a symbiotic relationship between breeders and rescues. We all love the dogs we deal with. We just have a different job and a different focus. All breeders are probably not the best, and I know others much better than me. All rescues the same

Picture of my Rose in the tall grass to show how quickly they can get hidden.. There was a fad for a while that GSP people wanted dogs with lots of white. Can you imagine finding a nice roan or other darker dog than she in that grass. When she gets on point, she is not going to break it just cuz I call her...

Julia

 

[DukTruk]

Just went back and read the whole thread.....wow, where to begin....

First of all, I don't need the government of any kind (Federal, State, or Local) telling me what to do when it comes to dogs. Those idiots can't keep a budget balanced to save their own butts. As with many other problems, legislation (or more legislation) is not the answer to anything.

The folks that do rescue work should be commended. It is a thankless job but very necessary in some areas. DO NOT put the need for "rescues" or "shelters" at the feet of breeders. We can (almost from memory) tell you where EVERY dog that has come out of our line is now. We only do a couple of breedings per year and folks wait for months, even years for a pup from this line. Due to the fact that folks have to wait, and they pay what we charge, they take better care of these dogs than they do their own family. We have a clause in our puppy contract that states that at any point in the dogs life, if you can't care for the dog, we will gladly take it back in no questions asked. We even go as far as offering their money back if the dog is not what they expected. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE THAT CAN BE DONE TO ASSURE THAT THE DOGS DONT WIND UP IN SHELTERS. We are not the exception. Most all performance breeders that we know have similar agreements.

Please don't put California up as an example of how to do anything. They have more laws than nearly any state in the union and more problems than anyone as well.

You also mean to tell me that "your" dog jumps fences, counter surfs, won't come when he's called, and hasn't been socialized got bit by another dog, and thats the fault of the kennel? The dog lives its life with no rules and you expect it to follow the rules at a kennel? To me, that is ridiculous. Further I think the Ag department is not going to do anything about your "complaint". The biggest thing that the Ag department looks at when they are here is the cleanliness and overall treatment of animals. A dog getting bitten by another dog is not abuse.

One of the biggest problems that we see is the fact that people "humanize" their dogs. Dogs are closer to being wild animals than they will ever be to being human. I'm not saying don't love them, I'm saying don't treat them like people. Every dog doesn't need to be rescued and every rescue didn't come from a breeder.

To sum everything up......

1. Your dog needs to be confined when you're not around. No matter how much training they've had. They can all be tempted (see the goose example that started this thread).

2. As better insurance, dogs should be microchipped (or tattooed), or wear a collar with owner's info on it.

3. All breeders are not irresponsible. I would venture to guess that the largest percentage of "breeders" go above and beyond what would be considered standard.

4. California is not a good example of anything when it comes to legislation and solving problems.