Purpose for believing?

[Artfuldodger]

Does one become a Christian to save their own soul from eternal death or to glorify God?

Would it be selfish to believe just to save your own soul from eternal death?

Would it be selfish to believe in order to get protection from God as an individual, family, or nation?

That's a lot of power when you think about it. If one in fact possesses that power.

Maybe God does give us that power. Perhaps he says "believe and I will provide everlasting life." Isn't that what John 3:16 says?

Am I being selfish if I want everlasting life? Can I do it for both reasons? To glorify God and to save my on soul?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm just having one of those weird thought processes.

Is my reason for believing to escape eternal death and is it selfish of me for believing? I know God wants me to believe so maybe he allows this one bit of selfishness so that it glorifies him some way.

 

[formula1]

re:

It cannot be selfish if God wanted you to have it!!! Freely!!!

It can only be selfish when one willfully withholds such a precious gift from others!

Proverbs 11:24
One gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want.

 

[centerpin fan]

Does one become a Christian to save their own soul from eternal death or to glorify God?

I did it for the chicks.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I did it for the chicks.

That's why I joined 4-H!
There were a lot of girls at Church too. Maybe that was just one of those blessings received for believing.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It cannot be selfish if God wanted you to have it!!! Freely!!!

It can only be selfish when one willfully withholds such a precious gift from others!

Proverbs 11:24
One gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want.

Good point, thanks.

 

[welderguy]

The ability to believe is neither given nor witholden by man, but is rather the gift of God.

Philippians 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


This gift is given to those that God purposed to give it before the foundation of the world.(not based on any works of man)

Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


The world cannot believe.It requires faith, which is also a gift from God.

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Many get angry about this doctrine,but Jesus makes a clear distinction between those the Father gave Him and those He did not.

John 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


question:
Why, if it was of man's freewill to believe, didn't Jesus pray that these of the "world" would believe?

 

[Artfuldodger]

John 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So my question is perhaps not viable. One can't believe to save his own soul(fear). One can't believe to honor God(love).

One can only believe as a result of grace.

I'll bet their are many folks that believe out of fear. They fear eternal death and want everlasting life. I'm not saying they can attain salvation based on this fear but I'm pretty sure they believe because of fear.

Then in all actuality, there is no reason to believe.

 

[welderguy]

John 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So my question is perhaps not viable. One can't believe to save his own soul(fear). One can't believe to honor God(love).

One can only believe as a result of grace.

I'll bet their are many folks that believe out of fear. They fear eternal death and want everlasting life. I'm not saying they can attain salvation based on this fear but I'm pretty sure they believe because of fear.

Then in all actuality, there is no reason to believe.

We cannot save ourselves eternally...no way, no how.

But,once we have been made alive by the Holy Spirit, we have belief placed within us. We are admonished to add to that faith and produce fruit.

Peter says it best:

2 Pet.1:5-11

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Should we live with the assumption that God has elected or will elect our Children?

Would it be wrong for me to wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my children, my own flesh and blood?

Borrowed from Romans 9:3

I would willingly trade my election for the salvation of my children. Yet that in itself is a work of man that I know can't happen.

It seems to appear though that God usually elects the children of the Elect.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm pretty sure that I started believing out of fear. I grew up where the preacher said believe or die.
I'm hoping that now I believe out of love yet I still do want to live an eternal life. So in a sense, I still believe out of fear.

Perhaps somewhere within this process I was elected to believe or started believing later with a real revealing by the Holy Spirit.

The mystery would be if I believed through election if I was Hindu. Regardless I feel that God is better at revealing than I am.

I'm glad that all who are chosen will respond.

 

[1gr8bldr]

Should we live with the assumption that God has elected or will elect our Children?

Would it be wrong for me to wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my children, my own flesh and blood?

Borrowed from Romans 9:3
.

Paul would have never said this if he believed in he11. Thought for the day

 

[Artfuldodger]

Paul would have never said this if he believed in he11. Thought for the day

I don't believe that eternal punishment is everlasting fire but death. Separation from God by death instead of everlasting life.
Why would it matter though if one could take the place for his children or countrymen? I'd still take my place in eternal fire for my children. Are you saying Paul wouldn't for his countrymen if he thought it meant eternal punishment in flames?

 

[welderguy]

I'm pretty sure that I started believing out of fear. I grew up where the preacher said believe or die.
I'm hoping that now I believe out of love yet I still do want to live an eternal life. So in a sense, I still believe out of fear.

1 John 4:18-19

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[hummerpoo]

I did it for the chicks.

Occasionally, although rarely, I think I have glimpsed a dim view of God’s work within His creation.
I hold no hope of the same for the inner workings of your mind;
which diminishes the enjoyment not one whit.

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 John 4:18-19

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Please explain adding verse 17;

This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

"whoever fears has not been perfected in love."

I'll put this scripture in my "fear" thread.

What Paul was fearing was eternal death/punishment for his kinsmen, not himself. Had his love not been perfected yet?
Like Paul, I fear God hasn't elected my daughters yet. Even with enough love from God I must accept that he might not elect them.

Seeing how most Election believers children have also been elected does concern me a little though. It could be construed as fear. At the least worry.

Think about it. Your ancestors have been going to this particular Primitive Baptist Church for 100 years. Your parents go there and it appears they have been elected. You go there and it appears you have been elected. It appears your children haven't.

Knowing that God elects Hindus that have never heard the Word, you begin to wonder why he hasn't elected your own children who have. Knowing that generations of your family have been elected, you start to wonder why your children will break the cycle.

Paul was so elated with his election that he wished he could give it up so that his kinsmen could have it.

 

[welderguy]

Please explain adding verse 17;

This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

"whoever fears has not been perfected in love."

Notice how the love of God is revealed to us in this text:

Romans 5:5

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

When we lean on this hope,(which is an anchor), we are far less prone to fear.

 

[hummerpoo]

Think about it. Your ancestors have been going to this particular Primitive Baptist Church for 100 years. Your parents go there and it appears they have been elected. You go there and it appears you have been elected. It appears your children haven't.

Knowing that God elects Hindus that have never heard the Word, you begin to wonder why he hasn't elected your own children who have. Knowing that generations of your family have been elected, you start to wonder why your children will break the cycle.

You might ask yourself how "appearing" became "knowing". I'm thinking there is something there that will shed light.

 

[Artfuldodger]

You might ask yourself how "appearing" became "knowing". I'm thinking there is something there that will shed light.

I used appearing instead of knowing because I don't the fate of every man.
So if I know that my grandmother was elected, my mother was elected, and myself was elected, yet doubt that my daughter is or it appears that she isn't?

The way election works is by God's grace and that grace alone. There is no rhyme or reason that man can come up with as to who God elects. It's not based on works. This would mean that God doesn't elect generations of the same family that go to the same Primitive Baptist Church. This means that he elects Hindus and islanders who have never heard the Gospel. There is no rhyme or reason for me to believe God would elect my children over the Hindu child just because generations of my family have gone to a certain Church or no church.

Regardless, I can't open my daughter's eyes any easier than I can open the eyes of a Hindu. This can only be done by God. It just appears to me that God elects more generations of Primitive Baptist than he does Hindus.

I've seen more Primitive Baptist with fruit of the Spirit than I have Hindus with fruit of the Spirit. Yet we know that God elected before time and not by works.
So the works of going to the Primitive Baptist Church for generations worked out for them as they got to see their children elected. It didn't workout for the Hindu equally. Yet works don't matter when it comes to election.

 

[Mr Mac]

Promises from God;

Isaiah 54:13-17 (ESV)
13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you. 15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you. 16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy; 17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication[e] from me, declares the Lord.”

This is one of those promises from God (along with Jeremiah 31:16 & 17 (ESV) 16 Thus says the Lord: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears, for there is a reward for your work, declares the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, declares the Lord, and your children shall come back to their own country.) that we hold on to a pray over our children daily.