Law vs grace

[1gr8bldr]

I don't grasp why God gave the Jews the Law to live by, then they try with all their might, only to declare it will not work. I understand it was to show them they needed a savior, and to give gentiles salvation as well. On a corporate level, it works, on an individual level, someone whom lived and died before Jesus, it's like giving someone a road map with wrong directions, intentional. This is why, I think the Jews whom died before Jesus will be given a pass. That they are "chosen". If not then God is unjust. I put this out their because I am rusty on my bible in recent years, realizing I am forgetting my own arguments, my own go to verses. Conversation on the subject reminds me

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'll have to dwell on that a bit but somewhat related is;
If it never was about the Law or Israel, why did God make it as such?
Why present it as being Jewish? Why Abraham and his descendants knowing that it never was?

Were they "chosen" for failure? Were they never the chosen as pertaining to God's people? In some weird predestined way to bring salvation to the gentiles or God's true chosen?

I too believe that if they were "set up" then this is what Romans 11 explains and that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

We must realize that God is no respecter of man. He has mercy on whom he pleases. He doesn't have to grant salvation to Israel based on the fact that they were chosen to live by the Law that they could never keep.
He may grant them salvation by opening the hardened ones eyes as he has promised. He may elect based on his love of the patriarchs. But in the end salvation is based on grace and not works.

 

[1gr8bldr]

What do you get from this... I can't seem to understand it in any fashion. 10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11For both the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are of the same family. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. 12He

 

[Artfuldodger]

Builder, does post #3 pertain to this thread or the other thread? I'm not sure how it ties in to this discussion.

I think it is just saying we become brothers to Jesus and the we have the same Father as Jesus.

 

[1gr8bldr]

This discussion.... It says 'both"
Who are sanctified..... Ohhhhh I see it now. I was thinking it was Jew and gentile, but it it saying Jesus and. No wonder it never made sense. I thought it was saying Jews were sanctified and gentiles were made to be sanctified

 

[Spineyman]

How were people who died before Christ saved?

by Matt Slick

The people who died before Christ was crucified were saved the same way as those who die after the crucifixion, by faith. The people of the Old Testament time looked forward to the coming Messiah. They trusted God according to the knowledge that they had - as would all people everywhere who were to have faith in God. But we who are alive after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, and who also have the New Testament documents, are at a great advantage. We can read the Scriptures with far more clarity and understanding than those in the Old Testament times. We know about the work of Christ on the cross. Those who died before Jesus never had the opportunity to trust in him because his crucifixion hadn't happened yet, but they were saved by faith the same as we are.

Salvation includes justification. Justification is a legal standing before God where we are declared righteous before God regarding his holy law. This is possible because Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). When we trust in Christ by faith, his righteousness is reckoned to our account (Philippians 3:9). So, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). This is the same as those in the Old Testament. In other words, even though they didn't know about Jesus, they still trusted in God and were also justified by faith.

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Romans 4:1-5).

As you can see, verse three speaks in the past tense: “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” It was Abraham's belief in God that was reckoned as righteousness, and that was before Christ was ever born. Likewise, notice in verse five it speaks in the present tense: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." So, those before Jesus (past tense) and those after Jesus (present tense) are saved the same way, by faith. The people in the Old Testament had faith and trusted in God, as Abraham did, and it was reckoned to them as righteousness (Rom. 4:3). Our faith is a little bit more precise in that we put our faith in what Christ has done on the cross, but it is also by faith.

So, the people who died before Christ was crucified are justified the same way that we are today, by faith.
https://carm.org/how-were-people-saved-who-died-before-jesus

 

[Artfuldodger]

Then all of the believing Jews before Jesus came were better off than most of the Jews that were born after he came. They didn't live long enough to know that he wasn't the King they were waiting on.
In a way, they had it easier. They didn't have to decide if Jesus was the Messiah like the ones who came later did.

Weird in a strange sort of way I guess.

 

[Spineyman]

Then all of the believing Jews before Jesus came were better off than most of the Jews that were born after he came. They didn't live long enough to know that he wasn't the King they were waiting on.
In a way, they had it easier. They didn't have to decide if Jesus was the Messiah like the ones who came later did.

Weird in a strange sort of way I guess.

You mean the ones after Jesus came and was crucified are now under more judgement. Because God clearly spoke of the One to Come. There are many Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. Therefore they, like the men of today are without excuse... Romans 1.

 

[1gr8bldr]

Then all of the believing Jews before Jesus came were better off than most of the Jews that were born after he came. They didn't live long enough to know that he wasn't the King they were waiting on.
In a way, they had it easier. They didn't have to decide if Jesus was the Messiah like the ones who came later did.

Weird in a strange sort of way I guess.

It don't work..... with modern day Christianity. Matt slicks, as posted by Spiney Man implies that since they expected the coming messiah that they are saved. However, none of them expected him to be God ... and modern day Christianity believes you believe Jesus is God for salvation. "What were they expecting" would be a great discussion topic

 

[1gr8bldr]

Then all of the believing Jews before Jesus came were better off than most of the Jews that were born after he came. They didn't live long enough to know that he wasn't the King they were waiting on.
In a way, they had it easier. They didn't have to decide if Jesus was the Messiah like the ones who came later did.

Weird in a strange sort of way I guess.

Have you ever pondered over just how offensive Jesus was to them? Imagine, Jesus walking in religious circles of today, insulting them, implying they were not "in the right", and it's not because the Jews were not trying. Imagine, their strict requirements and he says "you must eat my body". I feel for them. Trying to serve God the only way they were directed to serve. They did have a high expectation for the Christ. This meaning "the anointed one of God". Whom would deliver them from oppression. There mistake was the law was meant to cause utter hopelessness. To make them take God's New covenant. However they had misunderstood. They thought procedures, rituals, and good morals caused them to deserve. However, I still feel for them. This was all they knew, as if they were set up to fail. However.... Jesus's miracles were a sign that he was sent. They seemed to take note, to be drawn, only to resist. Why resist.....? Because he offended them so much. I must admit, I would likely have done the same. Paul, in his mind had dedicated his life to serve God. Had it not been for his Damascus rd experience, could anyone have convinced him that his religious resume was not a way to serve God? In observation, our view, it looks easy enough to see, however, if we had lived in that day, we would have been torn.

 

[Artfuldodger]

You mean the ones after Jesus came and was crucified are now under more judgement. Because God clearly spoke of the One to Come. There are many Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. Therefore they, like the men of today are without excuse... Romans 1.

No that's not what I meant at all. The Jewish believers before Jesus came only had to believe in a future Messiah. Faith in the promise.
They missed out on all of the "is he or isn't he" the Messiah decisions of the Jews who came after Jesus came to the earth. They weren't tasked with crucifying Jesus.
They were never indoctrinated that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. They were never blinded. They only had to believe that eventually a Messiah would come.

 

[Artfuldodger]

You mean the ones after Jesus came and was crucified are now under more judgement. Because God clearly spoke of the One to Come. There are many Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. Therefore they, like the men of today are without excuse... Romans 1.

The group in Romans 1 knew God. They chose to "exchange" their worship of God and worship idols. They were "creation." They were without excuse because they "exchanged" the truth for a lie. Therefore God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It don't work..... with modern day Christianity. Matt slicks, as posted by Spiney Man implies that since they expected the coming messiah that they are saved. However, none of them expected him to be God ... and modern day Christianity believes you believe Jesus is God for salvation. "What were they expecting" would be a great discussion topic

I never thought of that. Maybe Spineyman will respond.
Did the Old Testament believers who had faith in the Messiah, know that he was God?
If they did believe this, did they believe Jesus was 1/3 of the always being Trinity or did they believe in Oneness. That God the Father incarnate as man and became the Son?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Have you ever pondered over just how offensive Jesus was to them? Imagine, Jesus walking in religious circles of today, insulting them, implying they were not "in the right", and it's not because the Jews were not trying. Imagine, their strict requirements and he says "you must eat my body". I feel for them. Trying to serve God the only way they were directed to serve. They did have a high expectation for the Christ. This meaning "the anointed one of God". Whom would deliver them from oppression. There mistake was the law was meant to cause utter hopelessness. To make them take God's New covenant. However they had misunderstood. They thought procedures, rituals, and good morals caused them to deserve. However, I still feel for them. This was all they knew, as if they were set up to fail. However.... Jesus's miracles were a sign that he was sent. They seemed to take note, to be drawn, only to resist. Why resist.....? Because he offended them so much. I must admit, I would likely have done the same. Paul, in his mind had dedicated his life to serve God. Had it not been for his Damascus rd experience, could anyone have convinced him that his religious resume was not a way to serve God? In observation, our view, it looks easy enough to see, however, if we had lived in that day, we would have been torn.

All I can say is, I sure hope Romans 11 offers some of them salvation. They were set up for failure to show the world that the Law or righteous living could never buy one's salvation. No matter how hard they tried, it was never good enough. Generation after generation living under the Law as proof that man could never save himself. It only showed the way to Jesus. It only proved man needed a Savior.

It's like they were set up to bring salvation to the world. Their rejection brought reconciliation to the world. They were chosen out of all the nations to show the world that Man could never keep the Law.

Next they were set up to crucify the Messiah. They had to be hardened by God to bring his plan into place. Jesus had to die. Jesus was born a Jew. God made sure of this.
They were waiting on a King and Priest. He didn't meet their specifications. Still part of God's master plan to make sure his Son died. It all went down as planned. Just like in the Word. The Word was with God.

The good news for them is in Romans 11;

31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

Yes, the Jews thought Jesus to be ________. Thankfully God chose a Remnant based on grace and not by works.

I'm sure glad God still uses that formula today. Amen for his untraceable ways!
We should be thankful to the Jews for bringing reconciliation to the world.
We should be thankful to God for having the Jews bring reconciliation to the world.

As a Gentile it seems like a pretty good plan. If I were Jewish? Well it's a great plan. Thank you my Jewish ancestors.
Thank you God for using my great nation to bring reconciliation to the world.

 

[1gr8bldr]

I never thought of that. Maybe Spineyman will respond.
Did the Old Testament believers who had faith in the Messiah, know that he was God?
If they did believe this, did they believe Jesus was 1/3 of the always being Trinity or did they believe in Oneness. That God the Father incarnate as man and became the Son.

They would have fought the idea of Jesus being God. What they had was faith that he was coming. Not as God but anointed by God. They believed him to be coming as a King figure. They still do expect him. They were tripped up over him dying rather than ruling, not realizing that as God's firstborn, all authority has been given to him.

 

[Artfuldodger]

They would have fought the idea of Jesus being God. What they had was faith that he was coming. Not as God but anointed by God. They believed him to be coming as a King figure. They still do expect him. They were tripped up over him dying rather than ruling, not realizing that as God's firstborn, all authority has been given to him.

In relation to them tripping;

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

In relation to them not believe Jesus was God;

Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one."

The Jews didn't think Jesus had the right genealogy.

Seems like I recall he didn't meet the qualifications of High Priest.

They totally missed that Jesus was firstborn which is also a big part of their beliefs. Again it's hard to separate the Jewish connection from Jesus.

 

[1gr8bldr]

They would have fought the idea of Jesus being God. What they had was faith that he was coming. Not as God but anointed by God. They believed him to be coming as a King figure. They still do expect him. They were tripped up over him dying rather than ruling, not realizing that as God's firstborn, all authority has been given to him.

Remember, John states twice that John said "he was not the Christ". This is revealing. If it was not there mindset that he might be.... it clearly was John's that he did not want to be confused with being the Christ. Strange that anyone might confuse him

 

[Artfuldodger]

Remember, John states twice that John said "he was not the Christ". This is revealing. If it was not there mindset that he might be.... it clearly was John's that he did not want to be confused with being the Christ. Strange that anyone might confuse him

John 1:6
There was a man sent from God whose name was John.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Strange indeed.

 

[1gr8bldr]

In relation to them tripping;

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

In relation to them not believe Jesus was God;

Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one."

The Jews didn't think Jesus had the right genealogy.

Seems like I recall he didn't meet the qualifications of High Priest.

They totally missed that Jesus was firstborn which is also a big part of their beliefs. Again it's hard to separate the Jewish connection from Jesus.

I take this as a prophecy against the Trinity. It does not say Hear oh Israel, the Lord your God is three

 

[1gr8bldr]

In relation to them tripping;

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

In relation to them not believe Jesus was God;

Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one."

The Jews didn't think Jesus had the right genealogy.

Seems like I recall he didn't meet the qualifications of High Priest.

They totally missed that Jesus was firstborn which is also a big part of their beliefs. Again it's hard to separate the Jewish connection from Jesus.

The people were divided, at one point he laid low because he was afraid they would almost force him as king. Many recoginized that miracles were meant to be proof, Prophet likened to Moses. However, once he was arrested, all hope was lost. Even the disciples walking along the road after his death, not realizing they were talking to Jesus, was so disappointed, they had thought he was the one. So I believe this was a major hindrance to their believing he was the Christ.