Plumbing issues

[Jeff Raines]

My house is 19 years old and also developing the pin hole leaks.
I'm using shark bites with pex

 

[GA native]

I've seen adverts for a slime that they pump through copper piping to seal the inside and make it like new. That being said, it was years ago...so not sure if it is still something they do. Whole house copper re-piping isn't too difficult and can be done...but I figure PEX is taking over and would probably be easier/cheaper.

It's epoxy. Once upon a time, I worked on a cash cow condo-plex, that had polybutlylene plumbing. The condos were about 20 years old, and all the poly was failing. I've met one plumber, there at the cash cow, who did the epoxy.

Stuff seems like a nightmare to install. They have to go into the house, disconnect every valve, and cap it. Then one line at a time, they open the cap, and pump the epoxy into the the line. Then chase it with compressed air. Once all the pipes are coated, they have to let it sit overnight. Then you pressurize, and hope it doesn't leak.

I don't think it's done anymore.

 

[Anvil Head]

Just a note: If you do indeed wind up repiping most or all of the house, think it through and install extra cut-off valves in strategic areas. These will allow you to isolate future problems with out having to cut water off to the entire house well worth the little extra time and $$.
I wound up redoing my whole house because of the copper/pinhole issue cropping up in different places at different times (never convenient times either). I went pex/sharkbite and have had no issues the last seven years (fingers X'd). Pinholes + sheetrock walls = renewing your anger management class certificate.

 

[LonePine]

I am going about a year of moving into a house that was built in 1983 I think. The house has its share of age related issues, but is overall in ok shape. Recently, I had a pipe develop a pin hole leak which I was able to contain and have repaired. A section of pipe was cut out to be replaced due to a couple of pin hole leaks in it. We also surveyed the rest of the visible pipes for indications of potential leaks. Plumbing is all copper.

End result 3 pin hole leaks repaired and 3 more identified as potential future leaks. Inspecting the inside of the pipe that was cut out, it looks ok except for dots of corrosion every so often, all on the bottom of the pipe, all isolated to a point (not big splotches or concentrated dots). This is both hot and cold water lines.

Questions.

1) Chances this is an isolated incident and once I deal with these 6 items, I'll be done? Is this an indication that I'm going to have to repipe the whole house?

2) Any theories on what causes this type of failure?

3) Chances insurance covers pipe replacement as a potential whole house issue due to corrosion?

4) What do people think of PEX piping? How hard is it to DIY?

Pin Hole leaks in copper pipes are very widespread in East Cobb/Marietta. Some of my neighbors are dealing with the same issue you are having.

Cobb County-Marietta Water Authority has contracted with Virginia Tech to examine samples of copper pipe with pinhole leaks and develop a hypothesis on the cause. They are in search of samples of the pipes that have had the pinhole leaks. If you still have yours, you can contact the CCMWA at the main number ((770-514-5300) and ask to speak with Cole E. Blackwell, their director of operations. He will arrange for someone to come by and pick up a sample (at least according to my neighbors).

 

[Crakajak]

Is this house on county water or well water?

 

[Barfolomew]

Pin Hole leaks in copper pipes are very widespread in East Cobb/Marietta. Some of my neighbors are dealing with the same issue you are having.

Cobb County-Marietta Water Authority has contracted with Virginia Tech to examine samples of copper pipe with pinhole leaks and develop a hypothesis on the cause. They are in search of samples of the pipes that have had the pinhole leaks. If you still have yours, you can contact the CCMWA at the main number ((770-514-5300) and ask to speak with Cole E. Blackwell, their director of operations. He will arrange for someone to come by and pick up a sample (at least according to my neighbors).

I can do this. I still have the pipe and you can see the corrosion spots in it.

Just a note: If you do indeed wind up repiping most or all of the house, think it through and install extra cut-off valves in strategic areas. These will allow you to isolate future problems with out having to cut water off to the entire house well worth the little extra time and $$.
I wound up redoing my whole house because of the copper/pinhole issue cropping up in different places at different times (never convenient times either). I went pex/sharkbite and have had no issues the last seven years (fingers X'd). Pinholes + sheetrock walls = renewing your anger management class certificate.

That would be the plan. I doubt I'll run individual lines for each connection, but I'll probably put in 3/4" valved manifolds to run to each room. Isolating a room and the feeder line should be good enough to shut things off until a any leak can be fixed. We have a remodel project planned for the future, so if I can keep things together until then, it would probably be cheaper to fix then.

I don't mind dry wall, I just hate the painting.

Is this house on county water or well water?

County water

 

[Killdee]

I have experience with this. I do home repairs and fix 5-6 pinhole leaks a month in east Cobb. This problem is wide spread nationwide and theories abound as to the cause. I have one customer we just repaired # 9 leak and All theirs have been between floors. All these customers are in 80s built homes, almost all the copper has been cerro brand red stripe, which is the cheaper copper, cold water side every time.
Theory’s/Causes,
excess flux used
Edges of pipe not reamed causes excess turbulence and wear
EPA use of different chemicals in the water treatment.
Grounding of the house, electrolysis
Excessive water pressure also may increase the occurrences, the above mentioned customers was at 135# when we checked it, changed the pressure reducing valve and none since.
I will save the phone numbers that were posted re the Cobb water treatment and will provide them some sample pipe in the near future.
Btw Home Depot and Lowe’s sells both grades of copper, red and blue stripe blue is the thicker grade. And nothing wrong with shark bites, we have used them for years in places to tight to solder.

 

[Killdee]

Pin Hole leaks in copper pipes are very widespread in East Cobb/Marietta. Some of my neighbors are dealing with the same issue you are having.

Cobb County-Marietta Water Authority has contracted with Virginia Tech to examine samples of copper pipe with pinhole leaks and develop a hypothesis on the cause. They are in search of samples of the pipes that have had the pinhole leaks. If you still have yours, you can contact the CCMWA at the main number ((770-514-5300) and ask to speak with Cole E. Blackwell, their director of operations. He will arrange for someone to come by and pick up a sample (at least according to my neighbors).

Thanks for posting this number, I think I still have a piece in my basement and I will start saving pipe from future repairs.

 

[Nuttin Better]

PEX pipe is the go to material used by 80% of the plumbers today. I am still not sold on this material for long term uses. This material and its connections and joints is similar to the older grey polybutylene pipe that was the latest greatest thing when if came out. I just don't trust it.

My house is 34 years old and is plumbed with CPVC. Never had a problem with leaks so far. I would recommend any repairs you do either using the same material you have, copper or using CPVC. I am still not sold on PEX or shark bite fittings for long term use.

 

[dixiecutter]

Pin Hole leaks in copper pipes are very widespread in East Cobb/Marietta. Some of my neighbors are dealing with the same issue you are having.

Cobb County-Marietta Water Authority has contracted with Virginia Tech to examine samples of copper pipe with pinhole leaks and develop a hypothesis on the cause. They are in search of samples of the pipes that have had the pinhole leaks. If you still have yours, you can contact the CCMWA at the main number ((770-514-5300) and ask to speak with Cole E. Blackwell, their director of operations. He will arrange for someone to come by and pick up a sample (at least according to my neighbors).

Several reasons the copper can breakdown. Sand, water PH, minerals, electrolytic corrosion. When you're developing random pinholes, consider your copper as begginng to fail. If you talk to people up and down the road nearby, chances are they've all been there to. So as this guy posted ^ in some areas the copper can last 100 years, in some areas it breaks down in 30. That goes for wells and utilitities. 20-30 year old copper performs differently in different geographies.

You may not have an emergency but it's probably time to bite the bullet and re-plumb. Not only is pex a good solution, it's likely the only thing your contractors will even consider. That or cpvc. Makes pex an easy decision. And no- the box retailers have not thinned out the copper. Copper is thickness rated by it's letter markings. If you got some very thin copper, you may have mistakenly bought "type m". Type L is the standard for water supply. Look on the bright side- you're in an offgrade house. Lot's of people have the same problem under their slab, which is a whole-nother nightmare.

 

[jeardley]

The pitting of the pipe is most likely caused from mineral deposits. I ran into this 10 or so years ago trouble shooting a building with the same symptoms you mentioned, sent the pipe to a laboratory to have it tested, and that was the outcome (Can't remember what the mineral content was though). Unfortunately, this will continue to cause you problems as it has adhered to the walls of your piping. If you're on well water I would replace with a plastic product as it is much less susceptible to corrosion. If on city water I would put copper back in my own home. Below are my thoughts on the different piping systems.

Copper w/soldered joints: Best track record with a history of longevity. Overall there aren't many cons to it. It's the most expensive option to install. The main thing to watch out for is not allowing it to contact dissimilar metals. Use type L (blue stripe) above grade, and type K below grade

CPVC w/glue joints: This would be my second choice. It has a good track record over the past 20-25 years. There were some issues when first introduced to market but these were corrected years ago. Things to watch out for are stress fractures (bending the pipe). It actually becomes harder over time, but with its strengthening it also become more brittle. Also there are incompatible materials that will soften the piping and should not come in contact with it (you can look this up on manufacturers website). Use "flowguard gold" resin based products. They are the ones that stood by their product and worked out the manufacturing issues when it first came to market.

PEX w/crimp rings: I'm not sold on PEX yet. It's a relatively new product and hasn't stood the test of time in my book. I saw where someone mentioned that it has been used in Europe for years and have heard the same thing for it and numerous other plumbing products that have failed here in the good Ol US of A. It may turn out to be a good product and last for many years to come but just hasn't been in operation long enough for me to be comfortable with it.

Sharkbite: Another relatively new product that hasn't stood the test of time. I won't allow anyone that works with me to use them on our projects (here again they may last). If you take a minute and look at these the only thing that creates a seal is an O-ring embedded in the fitting whereas the systems listed above have a good solid joint. I don't have much confidence in a an 1/8" thick O-ring lasting 30 years.

Most importantly with all of these is to make sure the joints are bottomed out when installing and take a minute to read/follow the manufacturers installation instructions.

Also, if you elect to do the work yourself. Run all the new piping up to you connection points/fixtures. You will be able to do the bulk of the install while keeping your plumbing on-line and minimize any down time. Test what you have in place, then make the transition. Adding a couple additional isolation valves to zone off your system is never a bad idea.

 

[Killdee]

Had another pinhole repair yesterday, #4 for this lady in Sibley Forrest off paper mill.

Cold water Red stripe thin wall Cerro brand copper 1980s house

This was a fun one, leaking from basement ceiling, was able to see it was coming from the floor above and was able to find it in the foyer closet wall.

 

[bany]

Well water seems to be hard on the copper pipes, maybe it’s thin wall but it still takes its toll.
The connections on pex are also made of copper and I’ve seen them dissolve also.

 

[Killdee]

Had 3 more pinhole leaks in the above customer in Sibley forrest, 2 3 weeks ago and 1 today, and repaired 8-10 others in nearby neighborhoods. I'm going to find time to contact Cobb water tomorrow. I lost the number and had to search the forum to find this thread to find the guy to contact. Thanks Lance

 

[OmenHonkey]

Yep Electrolysis. I would use Pex and it can be DIY if your are a handy guy. You could soend a little extra and do it in Sections of your Home at a time. Tie the new sections back to the old with a fitting you'll eventually throw away. I worked with a plumber in the early 90's and we always attached a ground strap to the cooper and grounded it good. That helps deter Electrolysis.

 

[JackSprat]

After the copper got stolen from my mother's house, we went back with PEX and I'm a believer now.

Everything was in a basement so everything was overhead. Took a licensed plumber less than a half day (basement was empty). Run it, cut it off, clamp it.

For a whole house, I wouldn't DYI.

Today's copper is much thinner that formerly was the case.

It's not the red clay directly - soil and water in most of Georgia is acidic - acid and copper is not a good mix as anyone who has ever dropped a copper penny in a Coke knows.

 

[Spotlite]

1) 2 chances... slim and none

2) minerals in the water dissolving the copper

3) see question #1

4) It is not had to do, and it seems to be fairly reliable.

Yup.

Keep in mind that if you’re going to use PEX........some locations have limited supply on fittings, etc.

I went with PVC........most gas stations around here have some PVC fittings on the shelf.

 

[dixiecutter]

Had another pinhole repair yesterday, #4 for this lady in Sibley Forrest off paper mill.

Cold water Red stripe thin wall Cerro brand copper 1980s house

This was a fun one, leaking from basement ceiling, was able to see it was coming from the floor above and was able to find it in the foyer closet wall.

I know I'm way late- that Cero tubing with red labeling is type "M", the thinnest copper available for water pressure. I'm sure Killdee has finished this project but here's the deal: a plumbing leak happens, it's just part of life. But when you have type M copper and it starts developing pinholes, you're toast. It's time to completely re-plumb. Ditto for Galvenized- once you start having corrosion failures, it's just a matter of time.

 

[Killdee]

I sent an email to Cole Blackwell from the Cobb county Water Authority this morning and got a quick response. He is out of town but welcomed me to bring new samples in with the addresses to do another study. He also sent me a link to their last study. Repaired another pinhole leak this morning.....

Pinhole-Leaks-in-Copper-Plumbing-Systems

 

[Davexx1]

Our house was built in the 80s with all copper water lines and we had a leak develop in an interior wall a couple years ago. It flooded two rooms before we got the water supply turned off, required alot of work, mold remediation, etc. An inspection revealed little green spots of corrosion or electrolysis on most of the copper water lines throughout the house. It was just a matter of time before more leaks occurred, so we had the home re-piped with pex. We have no crawl space under the floor so the new pex pipe feeder and branch lines had to go up and into the roof/attic space, branch off down thru each interior wall connecting to each sink, toilet, water fixtures, etc all thru the house. Access holes were cut in the drywall in every wall to facilitate the fixture connections.

The pex pipe is supposed to be good BUT being in the attic, the plastic pex pipe and water gets scalding hot in the summer and freezing cold during the winter. A real PITA to say the least, very wasteful as we tend to run the water out until normal temp is felt, and it doesn't seem healthy for your drinking water to sit and/or flow thru scalding hot water pipes in the attic. We may not have to, but we now buy bottled water to drink and cook with. Your situation may be different if you have easy access but a licensed plumber would probably be the best option.