The Enlightenment

[ambush80]

I just started listening to this interview but so far it seems...enlightening. At around the 10 minute mark the bishop says that "Hyper-individualism, hyper rationalism" are the "Dark side" of the Enlightenment. What do you guys think? So far they seem to be arguing for the merits of "Revelation". I'm anxious to see what they say. What are your best arguments for the validity and utility of revelation?

 

[gemcgrew]

What are your best arguments for the validity and utility of revelation?

You don't know my answer.

 

[ambush80]

You don't know my answer.

No I don't. What is it?

 

[Spotlite]

I just started listening to this interview but so far it seems...enlightening. At around the 10 minute mark the bishop says that "Hyper-individualism, hyper rationalism" are the "Dark side" of the Enlightenment. What do you guys think? So far they seem to be arguing for the merits of "Revelation". I'm anxious to see what they say. What are your best arguments for the validity and utility of revelation?

I could understand the bishop saying that hyper individualism and rationalism as being the dark side, as it would or could stem from uncertainty or doubt?

 

[ambush80]

I could understand the bishop saying that hyper individualism and rationalism as being the dark side, as it would or could stem from uncertainty or doubt?

What do you mean?

 

[Spotlite]

What do you mean?

Is 'hyper" anything really based on sound, thought-out reason? From the Bishop`s stand-point the dark side of "hyper" could mean there are some folks just making noise about something rather than honestly weighing it out.

That may not be the bishop's concern, but it is why I can understand him saying that.

 

[Israel]

JBP makes interesting observations vis a vis enlightenment in the following...but that exposition begins at 6:06 with much preceding that point (that is not without relevance and merit). Nevertheless the "meat" I find at 6:06 and thereafter. In particular regarding the current topic of enlightenment.

Although I have a hope for a further "light" for him and from him, he lays out a preliminary case for both the existence of enlightenment, with no less the caution of what is manifest to its ignoring.

"

"

 

[ambush80]

The whole thing is really worth watching.

Sam: "We should be able to agree that having a worldview guided by a continuous, honest engagement with reality, as far as we can apprehend it, is better than having a worldview solidified or anchored to unchanging ideas that were born of people who had none of our present tools, none of our present insights, into anything."

 

[WaltL1]

The whole thing is really worth watching.

Sam: "We should be able to agree that having a worldview guided by a continuous engagement with reality, as far as we can apprehend it, is better than having a worldview solidified or anchored to unchanging ideas that were born of people who had none of our present tools, none of our present insights, into anything."

Sam: "We should be able to agree that having a worldview guided by a continuous engagement with reality, as far as we can apprehend it, is better than having a worldview solidified or anchored to unchanging ideas that were born of people who had none of our present tools, none of our present insights, into anything."

I haven't watched the vid and I probably should before commenting but.....
We've heard numerous Christians tell us here that based on their experiences, God existing IS reality.
To me, that seems to be a major flaw in this particular part of Sam's argument.
For a Christian, God is reality and they are continuously engaged with that reality....

 

[ambush80]

I haven't watched the vid and I probably should before commenting but.....
We've heard numerous Christians tell us here that based on their experiences, God existing IS reality.
To me, that seems to be a major flaw in this particular part of Sam's argument.
For a Christian, God is reality and they are continuously engaged with that reality....

"....as far as we can apprehend it"

That part is more important. We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions. The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value, not eating shellfish doesn't. Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either. Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.

 

[Spotlite]

"....as far as we can apprehend it"

That part is more important. We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions. The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value, not eating shellfish doesn't. Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either. Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.

Elaborate on the negative effects of the individual and society, what is the source for those results and how are they measured?

Many, including myself would strongly disagree with you. Many feel that the lack of a spiritual life leads to the type of society we are now seeing more and more of, such as the latest development in New York.

 

[WaltL1]

"....as far as we can apprehend it"

That part is more important. We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions. The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value, not eating shellfish doesn't. Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either. Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.

I think my observation still stands?
A Christian apprehends/understands/perceives that God is reality...
I guess my point is while that particular statement would find agreement with you and me... its not you and me or our point of view that he's addressing ?

has demonstrable value, not eating shellfish doesn't.

I ate some oysters one time that would have had demonstrative value to me if
I hadn't

 

[WaltL1]

"....as far as we can apprehend it"

That part is more important. We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions. The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value, not eating shellfish doesn't. Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either. Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.

I'm in a devil's advocate mood today so Im going to challenge you again -
While certainly you could provide examples of negative effects, Ive got to believe there are also examples where the belief in heaven and he11 had a positive effect on at least society.
Theres a couple billion Christians. It would be pretty hard to claim that the fear of he11 or a desire for heaven didn't stop a few car jackings or strong arm robberies or......

 

[bullethead]

Elaborate on the negative effects of the individual and society, what is the source for those results and how are they measured?

Many, including myself would strongly disagree with you. Many feel that the lack of a spiritual life leads to the type of society we are now seeing more and more of, such as the latest development in New York.

I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee. True friends I have do not fill one hand. They have been my best friends for over 30 years. Yet I can say that I know and am friendly with 100's.

I am positive that the lack of a spiritual life has not had a shred of negative impact on me in any way, shape or form. If anything I could make a case that I am a better person without it.
I know many a holy roller that has not led the life I have. I am pretty confident in saying that as far as being an honest, productive, trustworthy husband, Father and member of society I would rank in the upper echelon. No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me. I know a lot of spiritual people who can't touch that....what is their excuse if in fact spiritual has ANYTHING to do with it???

Now, and I say this sincerely. There are many people just like me, and many more better and many more worse and their spiritual involvement varies as much as the range of people do.
My point....spirituality has nothing to do with anything universally. If it did, EVERY spiritual person would be a just a notch below the source where they think that spirit comes from. And, flatley .....history and action shows they are not.

 

[Israel]

"....as far as we can apprehend it"

That part is more important. We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions. The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value, not eating shellfish doesn't. Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either. Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.

"Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society"

There is neither compulsion nor interest in arguing against that assertion. But, how foolish would a man be to not recognize that as assertion? How much of cake can one retain in the eating?

The broadness of that assertion is also neither of any interest. When, several years ago a friend at work handed another a brief intro to Sam Harris (in whom he also found reason for recommendation) via a few pages under his (Sam's) authorship on "Ethics", the reader concluded he was just another empty husk peddling dust when coming to this statement by Harris "my study of ethics has caused me to be a better man". That's as close to what was written as memory serves. But, as Dr. Steve Brule would recommend..."check it out".

"Better man". Who either isn't or hasn't been the one falling for that trope? (I would have written "tired trope" as enamored as I am to having some appearance as literary, but tired trope has itself become a tired trope) So, I'll be better than that. Ha ha.

Yes, men are continually in pursuit (for the most part) of being "the better man". (Talk about a broad assertion!) Religious folks, no less (nor more really) often hold this out as a hope with which to capture some. "You can be better!" by following this way. The threat of inadequacies being eventually and unremittingly manifestly displayed has some potency to initiate a communal engagement (with perks accruing to those at the top of that pyramid scheme) a "getting the engine running" for the conveyance of those drivers, again, at the top.

But, this engine of commerce is no less the same as found in every endeavor of man. Religious hucksters bear no more, at least per any justice a man might levy, accusation. All systems...work the same. Those "at the top" (or imagining they are) always hold out (as they seek the perfect balance to their own sustaining) what is the mixture of gas (of some cost) and air (of seeming no cost) to keep combustion going. The fires/sparks of envy and greed need no initiation...being ubiquitous. Enough substance must be surrendered to keep those laboring (who sustain the toppers) in hope they too have a shot "at the top".


Contentment, the greatest enemy to those astride others, then becomes both weapon and enticement. You don't have it (weapon) I can give it (enticement). A man's a fool who sees only the carrot and stick driving others...never considering how he is driven entirely the same.

How far does one have to look on Sam Harris's (or name any other's...JBP, or our great religious authors) book covers to find a price?

Does food really taste better on a yacht or at an award's ceremony? Is conversation really better in a mahogany dining room than on a subway platform smelling of urine? If you listen too long to the man in the strait jacket...you may well end up like him! (Or, that man carrying the cross.) It's funny to watch and hear those who would holler at him, "but, you're criminal!" as though he was unaware of his appearance.

But it really is this thing that has been so long assessed as having "no cost" (and therefore entirely neglected as inconsequential) in the combustion that is solely, and always has been the true focus. (look a squirrel! and another assertion!) Men so rarely ever think of running out of air. (Do you hear those murmurings that I might quickly do the same?) Death is most often relegated to metaphor observed only for others. (How many assertions will this fool make?)

Sauce for goose and gander alike. Of course there's plenty here to take shots at.

"Pull!".
Or not.

For number of players type "Zero" and then hit enter.

"Of myself I can do NOTHING"

 

[NCHillbilly]

 

[bullethead]

I'm in a devil's advocate mood today so Im going to challenge you again -
While certainly you could provide examples of negative effects, Ive got to believe there are also examples where the belief in heaven and he11 had a positive effect on at least society.
Theres a couple billion Christians. It would be pretty hard to claim that the fear of he11 or a desire for heaven didn't stop a few car jackings or strong arm robberies or......

Back in the 1970's I remember Pyramid Power.
Literally thin metal frames in the shapes of Pyramids were marketed and sold to ease headaches, stress, have joints feel better, bring luck, increase positive outlook....you name it, The Pyramid Power helped.

Do you think the positive effects were REALLY from a couple of metal rods the buyer pieced together in the shape of a 3D triangle that came in a box, that was mass produced in Taiwan and sold in Kmart??

 

[bullethead]

Apparently still going on today AND responsible for all the positive effects of and on humans still to this day.....
https://www.healingenergytools.com/pyramid-work/

 

[NCHillbilly]

Back in the 1970's I remember Pyramid Power.
Literally thin metal frames in the shapes of Pyramids were marketed and sold to ease headaches, stress, have joints feel better, bring luck, increase positive outlook....you name it, The Pyramid Power helped.

Do you think the positive effects were REALLY from a couple of metal rods the buyer pieced together in the shape of a 3D triangle that came in a box, that was mass produced in Taiwan and sold in Kmart??

There was a chiropractor here in my hometown that had a glass pyramid on top of his office where he would take "selected" patients to bask in the power of the pyramid. Back about twenty years ago, one of them (married lady who got caught absorbing pyramid power by her husband,) said that he raped her 14 times up there. Every week when she went back for another appointment, he raped her again.

 

[bullethead]

There was a chiropractor here in my hometown that had a glass pyramid on top of his office where he would take "selected" patients to bask in the power of the pyramid. Back about twenty years ago, one of them (married lady who got caught absorbing pyramid power by her husband,) said that he raped her 14 times up there. Every week when she went back for another appointment, he raped her again.

Oh, lolololol, not laughing that she got raped, but she went back 13 more times after the first!! Priceless...got caught..

I can't help but take note of all the dead Egyptians in Pyramids too