The Enlightenment

[NCHillbilly]

Oh, lolololol, not laughing that she got raped, but she went back 13 more times after the first!!

I can't help but take note of all the dead Egyptians in Pyramids too

Hint: there was no rape involved until her husband caught wind of her "treatments."

 

[Israel]

View attachment 957907

ha!

If it's alive after lopping off its own head...doesn't much matter how you consider it...to good or evil. It's first testimony is as something way different than previously considered in the realm of possibility.

Yeah...Jesus ain't skeered of looking evil.

 

[ambush80]

Elaborate on the negative effects of the individual and society, what is the source for those results and how are they measured?

Many, including myself would strongly disagree with you. Many feel that the lack of a spiritual life leads to the type of society we are now seeing more and more of, such as the latest development in New York.

The obvious examples are flying planes into buildings and campaigning against stem cell research. On the individual level I have observed that there's a psychological switch that gets thrown in people's minds when they think of themselves as saved and others as unsaved. It's divisive.

I'm not talking about abandoning "spirituality" or denying transcendent experience. I'm not even talking about denying the useful parts of mythologies that have been shaped by developing cultures and societies and neither is Sam.

 

[Israel]

I'm in a devil's advocate mood today so Im going to challenge you again -
While certainly you could provide examples of negative effects, Ive got to believe there are also examples where the belief in heaven and he11 had a positive effect on at least society.
Theres a couple billion Christians. It would be pretty hard to claim that the fear of he11 or a desire for heaven didn't stop a few car jackings or strong arm robberies or......

I think you already generated some responses.

Is it "good people (who wouldn't do this anyway) not needing such concepts for restraint"?
But, if they're "good"...then how does one account for the accusation they have this "bad" thing (their belief in heaven and ****)? Therefore man is basically "good"...except for that man who has been infected with what is conveniently called superstition...he's...well...the one that's not quite (at least) as good. Ha ha ha. (WE can make him better...nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh)

Or, are they "bad" people...needing a restraint beyond their perceived own natural inclinations (that would, otherwise car jack and strong arm aunt Thelma at the drop of hat) except for such restraint? Does aunt Thelma much care the why of what is necessary for her to drive to Piggly Wiggly or walk to cash her SS check?

Or...is it just their fear of being caught and jailed for breaking the law? (even though they maintain it is something else? "No, no, I desire heaven and fear ****!") That, were it not for the law, they would also surely be pistol whipping Thelma? (But, that would also testify...if only fear of law is at work...that man is basically in need of restraining by something super...and by nature...given to bad behavior if unrestrained)

Then you have the case of the insane. "I am good, know what good is, act in accord with it, but others...are not, and in need of some form of restraint...even if it be fear of law.

Yeah...

 

[WaltL1]

Back in the 1970's I remember Pyramid Power.
Literally thin metal frames in the shapes of Pyramids were marketed and sold to ease headaches, stress, have joints feel better, bring luck, increase positive outlook....you name it, The Pyramid Power helped.

Do you think the positive effects were REALLY from a couple of metal rods the buyer pieced together in the shape of a 3D triangle that came in a box, that was mass produced in Taiwan and sold in Kmart??

Nope I think it was a total scam.
BUT.....
If psychology it gave them a better outlook, made their joints better (rolled too tight?), relieved stress etc. did Pyramid Power work as advertised?

 

[WaltL1]

I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee. True friends I have do not fill one hand. They have been my best friends for over 30 years. Yet I can say that I know and am friendly with 100's.

I am positive that the lack of a spiritual life has not had a shred of negative impact on me in any way, shape or form. If anything I could make a case that I am a better person without it.
I know many a holy roller that has not led the life I have. I am pretty confident in saying that as far as being an honest, productive, trustworthy husband, Father and member of society I would rank in the upper echelon. No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me. I know a lot of spiritual people who can't touch that....what is their excuse if in fact spiritual has ANYTHING to do with it???

Now, and I say this sincerely. There are many people just like me, and many more better and many more worse and their spiritual involvement varies as much as the range of people do.
My point....spirituality has nothing to do with anything universally. If it did, EVERY spiritual person would be a just a notch below the source where they think that spirit comes from. And, flatley .....history and action shows they are not.

I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee.
No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me.

Its a miracle we think so much alike on this subject cuz buddy we are polar opposites in everything else

 

[bullethead]

Nope I think it was a total scam.
BUT.....
If psychology it gave them a better outlook, made their joints better (rolled too tight?), relieved stress etc. did Pyramid Power work as advertised?

Band aid to a deeper problem

 

[bullethead]

Its a miracle we think so much alike on this subject cuz buddy we are polar opposites in everything else

And Walt, THAT is my point!!!!!

Me and you, and add in everyone else that is a regular participant in here regardless of their beliefs.
I am certain each end of the spectrum and everything in between is represented.
Spirits, pyramid power, rabbits feet, mighty oak stump are all anecdotal tidbits that do not consistently offer the solutions to our problems or successes, actions or thoughts.
As different as we all are in some things we are the same in others.

If all 1.2 Billion Christians were pillars of their community, were on the same level morally, never been in trouble, all have been faithful and a hundred thousand other examples....Id say the spirit is involved.
But....we all know that is far from the case.

 

[ambush80]

I think you already generated some responses.

Is it "good people (who wouldn't do this anyway) not needing such concepts for restraint"?
But, if they're "good"...then how does one account for the accusation they have this "bad" thing (their belief in heaven and ****)? Therefore man is basically "good"...except for that man who has been infected with what is conveniently called superstition...he's...well...the one that's not quite (at least) as good. Ha ha ha. (WE can make him better...nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh)

Or, are they "bad" people...needing a restraint beyond their perceived own natural inclinations (that would, otherwise car jack and strong arm aunt Thelma at the drop of hat) except for such restraint? Does aunt Thelma much care the why of what is necessary for her to drive to Piggly Wiggly or walk to cash her SS check?

Or...is it just their fear of being caught and jailed for breaking the law? (even though they maintain it is something else? "No, no, I desire heaven and fear ****!") That, were it not for the law, they would also surely be pistol whipping Thelma? (But, that would also testify...if only fear of law is at work...that man is basically in need of restraining by something super...and by nature...given to bad behavior if unrestrained)

Then you have the case of the insane. "I am good, know what good is, act in accord with it, but others...are not, and in need of some form of restraint...even if it be fear of law.

Yeah...View attachment 957910

"How effective....?" better and better each day as secularism and reason get more refined and widespread and replace religious dogmatism .

 

[1gr8bldr]

I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee. True friends I have do not fill one hand. They have been my best friends for over 30 years. Yet I can say that I know and am friendly with 100's.

I am positive that the lack of a spiritual life has not had a shred of negative impact on me in any way, shape or form. If anything I could make a case that I am a better person without it.
I know many a holy roller that has not led the life I have. I am pretty confident in saying that as far as being an honest, productive, trustworthy husband, Father and member of society I would rank in the upper echelon. No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me. I know a lot of spiritual people who can't touch that....what is their excuse if in fact spiritual has ANYTHING to do with it???

Now, and I say this sincerely. There are many people just like me, and many more better and many more worse and their spiritual involvement varies as much as the range of people do.
My point....spirituality has nothing to do with anything universally. If it did, EVERY spiritual person would be a just a notch below the source where they think that spirit comes from. And, flatley .....history and action shows they are not.

What makes me mad is that Christians assume some kind of moral superiority over atheist, and it's simply not true. I'd venture to say that in your case, you have a moral superiority over them, because you don't use God's house as a means to exalt yourself and display your so called good deeds, where everything, EVERYTHING is done for men to see.

 

[ambush80]

What makes me mad is that Christians assume some kind of moral superiority over atheist, and it's simply not true. I'd venture to say that in your case, you have a moral superiority over them, because you don't use God's house as a means to exalt yourself and display your so called good deeds, where everything, EVERYTHING is done for men to see.

Furthermore, he doesn't have a system by which he can be forgiven his trespasses. He accepts that he alone is to blame (not Satan) and that he alone is responsible to make things right.

 

[bullethead]

What makes me mad is that Christians assume some kind of moral superiority over atheist, and it's simply not true. I'd venture to say that in your case, you have a moral superiority over them, because you don't use God's house as a means to exalt yourself and display your so called good deeds, where everything, EVERYTHING is done for men to see.

The moral superiority complex is not just over non atheists, but all non Christians, other Christian denominations, and individual Christian's within their own circle.
These are all clues at how individual this higher power stuff is.

I am saved, you are not.
I am a REAL Christian, they are not.
We see it daily in here and all throughout life.

It is not limited to Christians or any club. It is individual when it narrows down to the end.

 

[bullethead]

One minute "WE" are over a billion. Might makes right. 2000 years of blah blah blah. We are special.
The next minute "THEY" are not real Christians.
Not all are predestined to be with God.

I have never heard one Christian say that they are part of the not real crowd, part of the non elect, or are part of the doesn't get it crowd. It is ALWAYS someone else.

 

[ambush80]

The moral superiority complex is not just over non atheists, but all non Christians, other Christian denominations, and individual Christian's within their own circle.
These are all clues at how individual this higher power stuff is.

I am saved, you are not.
I am a REAL Christian, they are not.
We see it daily in here and all throughout life.

It is not limited to Christians or any club. It is individual when it narrows down to the end.

These are the more subtle and nefarious costs of belief in the power and legitimacy of personal revelation. It is impervious to correction by reasoned argument or physical evidence.

 

[WaltL1]

I think you already generated some responses.

Is it "good people (who wouldn't do this anyway) not needing such concepts for restraint"?
But, if they're "good"...then how does one account for the accusation they have this "bad" thing (their belief in heaven and ****)? Therefore man is basically "good"...except for that man who has been infected with what is conveniently called superstition...he's...well...the one that's not quite (at least) as good. Ha ha ha. (WE can make him better...nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh)

Or, are they "bad" people...needing a restraint beyond their perceived own natural inclinations (that would, otherwise car jack and strong arm aunt Thelma at the drop of hat) except for such restraint? Does aunt Thelma much care the why of what is necessary for her to drive to Piggly Wiggly or walk to cash her SS check?

Or...is it just their fear of being caught and jailed for breaking the law? (even though they maintain it is something else? "No, no, I desire heaven and fear ****!") That, were it not for the law, they would also surely be pistol whipping Thelma? (But, that would also testify...if only fear of law is at work...that man is basically in need of restraining by something super...and by nature...given to bad behavior if unrestrained)

Then you have the case of the insane. "I am good, know what good is, act in accord with it, but others...are not, and in need of some form of restraint...even if it be fear of law.

Yeah...View attachment 957910

But, if they're "good"...then how does one account for the accusation they have this "bad" thing (their belief in heaven and ****)?

I personally don't buy into that belief in heaven, he11, God or gods in and of itself is a "bad" thing. Its where they go from there that can fall under good or bad.
As for the "Or is it" examples, I think some people would fall into either scenario.

even if it be fear of law.

Isnt fear really the "power/backbone" of law?
Laws at the very least can be really inconvenient. If there was no fear of the punishment for breaking them...…. even what we describe as "good" people (or at least more of them) would be breaking them.
"This 35mph speed limit is going to make us late for church. What? No repercussions for speeding? Step on it Martha....…"

 

[WaltL1]

The moral superiority complex is not just over non atheists, but all non Christians, other Christian denominations, and individual Christian's within their own circle.
These are all clues at how individual this higher power stuff is.

I am saved, you are not.
I am a REAL Christian, they are not.
We see it daily in here and all throughout life.

It is not limited to Christians or any club. It is individual when it narrows down to the end.

This I where I separate following organized religion from simply belief in God or gods.
In my mind God or gods may or may not foster those type of attitudes but theres no question that organized religion does.

 

[Spotlite]

The obvious examples are flying planes into buildings and campaigning against stem cell research. On the individual level I have observed that there's a psychological switch that gets thrown in people's minds when they think of themselves as saved and others as unsaved. It's divisive.

I'm not talking about abandoning "spirituality" or denying transcendent experience. I'm not even talking about denying the useful parts of mythologies that have been shaped by developing cultures and societies and neither is Sam.

So at what point do we separate the “Charles Manson’s” or any other extremist from their claims?

Most of us have enough common sense to realize the difference in a tool and the individual(s) using them.

Those with an agenda such as the left, can’t. And what I mean by that, gun control would be an analogy to think on.

But back to my question, it appears you have a formed opinion on the “negative effects”, which is fine, but no real source to substantiate it?

 

[ambush80]

Here are a few reasons why I think that the continued cultural reverence for religiosity is regressive. The fact that a person running for office can tout their religiosity and use it as a platform is troubling. Conversely, the fact that if a candidate said that they were a secular Humanist, it would reflect poorly on their competency as a public servant. Also the fact that as recently as GHW Bush and to some extent Obama the Presidency has relied on religious leaders to help them shape policy, policy that in GHW's case gave him the confidence to lead us into war, is trobling as well. I would prefer secular people who base their actions on reason as opposed to revelation or religious mandate be in charge of those decisions. Religiosity is also a factor in why we are involved in the Palestinian/Israeli Conflict to the extent that we are. There are rational reasons for us to be involved in that conflict but in all honesty, the main reasons most people want us involved are not reason based but faith based.

 

[ambush80]

So at what point do we separate the “Charles Manson’s” or any other extremist from their claims?

Most of us have enough common sense to realize the difference in a tool and the individual(s) using them.

Those with an agenda such as the left, can’t. And what I mean by that, gun control would be an analogy to think on.

But back to my question, it appears you have a formed opinion on the “negative effects”, which is fine, but no real source to substantiate it?

What extremist ideology did Manson hold? That is a bad example.

We are discussing the negative effects of religion. I answered your question as best I could. I offered what I admitted was the worst case scenario. If by saying "it appears you have a formed opinion on the “negative effects”, which is fine, but no real source to substantiate it?" you mean that there is no correlation between the religious beliefs of Jihadists and their actions then I don't know what else to offer you as proof. For the last dozen posts Bullet, Walt, and I have cited many other deleterious effects of belief. Sam talks about the weird sexuality caused by repression that is a direct result of religious belief. You can say these analyses are wrong but you will have to explain why you think that, but you can't honestly say that I/we haven't given plenty of examples.

In thinking about this I wondered what else has the power to make rational people do irrational things quite like faith based belief. I thought maybe political ideology, which by the way works much like religion and maybe love or lust.

If you want to discuss the benefits to the individual and society that religious belief offers we can do that as well. Still, my observation is that the negatives outweigh the positives and I can articulate why I think so.

 

[Spotlite]

What extremist ideology did Manson hold? That is a bad example.

We are discussing the negative effects of religion. I answered your question as best I could. I offered what I admitted was the worst case scenario. If by saying "it appears you have a formed opinion on the “negative effects”, which is fine, but no real source to substantiate it?" you mean that there is no correlation between the religious beliefs of Jihadists and their actions then I don't know what else to offer you as proof. For the last dozen posts Bullet, Walt, and I have cited many other deleterious effects of belief. Sam talks about the weird sexuality caused by repression that is a direct result of religious belief. You can say these analyses are wrong but you will have to explain why you think that, but you can't honestly say that I/we haven't given plenty of examples.

In thinking about this I wondered what else has the power to make rational people do irrational things quite like faith based belief. I thought maybe political ideology, which by the way works much like religion and maybe love or lust.

If you want to discuss the benefits to the individual and society that religious belief offers we can do that as well. Still, my observation is that the negatives outweigh the positives and I can articulate why I think so.

Manson led his way into preaching and convinced his followers that he was the Man’s son.