What are your feelings on once saved always saved.

Artfuldodger said:

This group in Romans 9, they aren't chosen? I guess the Remnant(Elect) is just a part of this group.

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Yes!! Just like Noah and his family..Lot and his family.

Remember how Lots family was saved but...they were to never look back, yet his wife looked?

This is why Paul was stressing to them about how important it was for them to be pure as a virgin, or to be soo good. They had to endure to their own death or till Christ appearing.

hobbs27 said:

God always saved a remnant from destruction. Be it the great flood, or Sodom and Gommorah..The destruction of the Temple was yet another day of the Lord, and a remnant was saved out of it.


“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people that you may proclaim His praises..”; “(because) whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..”; “(so that) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus..”; “..and through us diffuse the fragrance of His knowledge in every place..” (Rom 8:29-30, 2 Cor 2:14, Eph 2:7, 1 Pet 2:9; cf, Ex 19:6, Rev 1:6, 5:10).

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So now that all of the destruction is over, God doesn't need to elect a remnant anymore.

I wonder why the remnants are always elected by grace and not works? Wait, wasn't the flood remnant chosen for their works?

Anyway, now that God is through destructing, he no longer needs to control who he chooses by grace, he let's us choose him instead of the other way around like he use to do it.

It just sounds like you are searching for a way to justify "election." A system that was needed in time to make God's plan come about but now that it has, election is no longer needed.

Does hardening and blinding work the same way? Now that it is finished, God no longer needs to harden?

Romans 9:17-18
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Romans 11:7-8
What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

God no longer needs to choose and elect to make his plan come about because his plan has already came about?

Art, Noah found grace in the eyes of God.

Faith ties us to the Kingdom of God. When our faith meets God's grace, we become children of God..Thats the New Covenant, and the only covenant to offer eternal life..and it's an everlasting covenant.

hobbs27 said:

Yes!! Just like Noah and his family..Lot and his family.

Remember how Lots family was saved but...they were to never look back, yet his wife looked?

This is why Paul was stressing to them about how important it was for them to be pure as a virgin, or to be soo good. They had to endure to their own death or till Christ appearing.

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Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Many Christians see the same verses you see as election too but that God still elects. I guess because they see a future destruction.

I'm still a bit confused, besides the Remnant out of Israel being elected by grace and not works, who else was elected before 70AD by grace and not works?

The Remnant was elected out of Israel and the rest of Israel was hardened so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.
Were these Gentiles that were grafted in elected or did they use free will to gain salvation? I can't see why God would elect a Remnant using grace, harden the rest of Israel, and then let Gentiles receive salvation based on free will. I mean his plan was not fulfilled at this time. You said the ones in Romans 9:6 were also elected so can I assume all souls were elected before 70AD and the rest were hardened before 70AD?

Another way to address it is, if God elected and hardened Jews to make his plan come about, wouldn't he do the same thing to Gentiles? Otherwise they might use their free will to mess up the whole plan. Maybe by not killing Jesus or not destroying Jerusalem.

If people were elected by grace and not works then I would assume they received eternal election and eternal salvation(OSAS).

If a remnant of Jews were elected by grace and not works then I would have to assume every person receiving salvation before 70AD would also have to be by grace and not works.
I think Romans 9:6 tells us this.

What I don't understand is how or why eternal election morphed into eternal salvation(OSAS) at 70AD. If all was finished then perhaps so. Why would God need to continue with eternal election? His plan was finished.

Still though it would appear that if eternal election was over then so would eternal salvation. They tend to go hand in hand.

Now with God's plan finished, the book was finished too. The movie version has also been written and finished. We pick up the book and we read how the author made everything happen using election and hardening. Now that it is finished, the writer doesn't control the sequel. No more election and hardening. No more eternal salvation. No more un-grafting, grafting in, grafting out, and re-grafting now that the story is over.
Is this possible?

Art, all that aside. When one is created in the family of God they are always in the family.

Adam was still a child of God, even though he was chastised and cursed. We, once having the Spirit breathe life into us, have eternal life. It's then up to us, to embrace God and live a happy life or rebel and face many chastisements.

hobbs27 said:

Art, all that aside. When one is created in the family of God they are always in the family.

Adam was still a child of God, even though he was chastised and cursed. We, once having the Spirit breathe life into us, have eternal life. It's then up to us, to embrace God and live a happy life or rebel and face many chastisements.

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I thought you didn't believe that we today are regenerated by the Holy Spirit(born again)?

welderguy said:

I thought you didn't believe that we today are regenerated by the Holy Spirit(born again)?

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Re...means to do over..right?

hobbs27 said:

Re...means to do over..right?

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Born of water...and of the Spirit.

Re-born

It seems to me that if a person gets saved. Then....they go do something heinous.......they have breached whatever commitment was made....like they do a robbery, a mugging, maim someone, cheat someone, that sort of stuff....sort of like going to confession and then carrying on as before......

welderguy said:

Born of water...and of the Spirit.

Re-born

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When God breathed into Adams nostrils, was Adam born...or born again?

hobbs27 said:

When God breathed into Adams nostrils, was Adam born...or born again?

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All people have the breath of life in them.
Being born of the Spirit is something entirely different, and not all people experience it.Only those that are ordained to eternal life.

welderguy said:

All people have the breath of life in them.
Being born of the Spirit is something entirely different, and not all people experience it.Only those that are ordained to eternal life.

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Since being born of spirit is entirely different...can one be born of spirit twice? Or born again?

If one is born of flesh then later born of something entirely different..could that then be being born again?

I think Nicodemus knew very well that one could not be born twice physically, but used that analogy to explain the spiritual.

See those Jews were physically children of God by bloodline. They were physically born into the physical ( Israel) kingdom of God, and physically circumcised.

But to enter into the spiritual kingdom of God they had to set their bloodline aside and enter by faith..they had to be born again into the kingdom of God, by faith, and by circumcision of the heart.

We are not born into a physical kingdom of God, we are as Adam was. Therefore God created us into His Kingdom when we answered the beckoning of the Spirit. Us being whosoever will. Born or made alive spiritually once...not regenerated, or born again. Generated and birthed once.

Nicodemus' question was the natural response one would expect after telling a person he had to be born the second time.

If the first birth was physical which is followed by everlasting death of the body and soul, wouldn't one need another birth to take on a spiritual life which is everlasting life?

hobbs27 said:

See those Jews were physically children of God by bloodline. They were physically born into the physical ( Israel) kingdom of God, and physically circumcised.

But to enter into the spiritual kingdom of God they had to set their bloodline aside and enter by faith..they had to be born again into the kingdom of God, by faith, and by circumcision of the heart.

We are not born into a physical kingdom of God, we are as Adam was. Therefore God created us into His Kingdom when we answered the beckoning of the Spirit. Us being whosoever will. Born or made alive spiritually once...not regenerated, or born again. Generated and birthed once.

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Those Jews were physically children of God. God has physical children and a different group that are spiritual children? That could explain a lot about different kinds of salvation.

Did the Remnant(Elect) answer the beckoning call of the Spirit or were they just physical children as well?

Can we separate physical children from spiritual children? How do we know that Adam was a spiritual child instead of a physical child of God?

hobbs27 said:

Since being born of spirit is entirely different...can one be born of spirit twice? Or born again?

If one is born of flesh then later born of something entirely different..could that then be being born again?

I think Nicodemus knew very well that one could not be born twice physically, but used that analogy to explain the spiritual.

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Jesus is the one that is explaining that you must be born twice---once by your mother,and once by the Spirit.It's just that simple.Two births.A birth takes place,then a birth takes place AGAIN.

Artfuldodger said:

Nicodemus' question was the natural response one would expect after telling a person he had to be born the second time.

If the first birth was physical which is followed by everlasting death of the body and soul, wouldn't one need another birth to take on a spiritual life which is everlasting life?

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Was it the natural response of a well studied Pharisee, that believed in an after life?

welderguy said:

Jesus is the one that is explaining that you must be born twice---once by your mother,and once by the Spirit.It's just that simple.Two births.A birth takes place,then a birth takes place AGAIN.

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Jesus doesn't say you or I need to be born again. He tells Nicodemus a Jew, that he needed to be born again.

rjcruiser said:

I wonder if I can un-elect myself.

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I axed Reformedpastor and his wife, Banjo a while back
(remember them?).........

If I wanted to "convert" to one of those that believe in
"elect", could I?

They both told me no..

Basically saying if you were not born elect,
you had a pass to the hot place.

How stupid is that?

Why try to do good if you just going to the hot place anyway, if you are not one of the "elect"?

hobbs27 said:

Was it the natural response of a well studied Pharisee, that believed in an after life?

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The Jew did have a lot of rebirths. Maybe Nicodemus had had so many he was wondering if he'd have to start over. I'm sure he knew the term.

But at that time he wasn't born of the Spirit. I don't have a problem with the term "born again." It's the same as rebirth.

Rebirth, second birth, same thing. One comes later than the first.