How do you know this? Do you have any facts to prove this, or are you just guessing?
You`re painting with a real big brush.
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Baiting turkeys
- Thread starter Gaswamp
- Start date
How do you know this? Do you have any facts to prove this, or are you just guessing?
You`re painting with a real big brush.
furtaker
Senior Member
Most of them are too lazy to work and help themselves.
SC turkey guy
Member
Browning Slayer,
Nice picture. Great to see poults. But........ I see 5 poults with 2 hens. 2 about a week or two older than the other 3. Each probably laid 8-12. Puts the survial at ( if we use 8 each) at about 31.25%. Use average of 10 and your down to 25%, 12 and your down to just under 22%. Not great. That is a recruitment rate of 2.5 poults per hen. Experts say that we need recruitment rate of 2 poults per hen to just sustain populations.
You may have the best management practices available, and do everything right. But, if you lose just 1 of those (highly probable) and you are only sustaining and not growing. That aside, if those young birds at 3-4 months old get into a 100 lb pile of corn on your neighbors land that has been thrown on the ground and left. Because that guy knows how good your place is and he wants to draw off you and take advantage of your hard work. (I know this to be true because I will be able to show you no less than 10 corn piles and stands within 100 feet of my 4 miles of property lines come Sept.. Deer can gobble up 100 lbs in a 2-3 days, but not likely in Aug, Sept. when natural browse are still going strong). And in 3-5 days it grows a harmful amount of toxin (possibly deadly in 7-10 days) and you lose only 1 poult, you are at break even. More than that and you are at a net loss.
If you had 7-8 poults in that picture, at this stage of their lives, I'd say you were doing well.
I'll attach a 40 year graph of poult recruitment provided by SCDNR web site
Could be coincidence could point to something.
Nice picture. Great to see poults. But........ I see 5 poults with 2 hens. 2 about a week or two older than the other 3. Each probably laid 8-12. Puts the survial at ( if we use 8 each) at about 31.25%. Use average of 10 and your down to 25%, 12 and your down to just under 22%. Not great. That is a recruitment rate of 2.5 poults per hen. Experts say that we need recruitment rate of 2 poults per hen to just sustain populations.
You may have the best management practices available, and do everything right. But, if you lose just 1 of those (highly probable) and you are only sustaining and not growing. That aside, if those young birds at 3-4 months old get into a 100 lb pile of corn on your neighbors land that has been thrown on the ground and left. Because that guy knows how good your place is and he wants to draw off you and take advantage of your hard work. (I know this to be true because I will be able to show you no less than 10 corn piles and stands within 100 feet of my 4 miles of property lines come Sept.. Deer can gobble up 100 lbs in a 2-3 days, but not likely in Aug, Sept. when natural browse are still going strong). And in 3-5 days it grows a harmful amount of toxin (possibly deadly in 7-10 days) and you lose only 1 poult, you are at break even. More than that and you are at a net loss.
If you had 7-8 poults in that picture, at this stage of their lives, I'd say you were doing well.
I'll attach a 40 year graph of poult recruitment provided by SCDNR web site
Could be coincidence could point to something.
SC turkey guy
Member
Some may think that I'm writing some of this because there is rumor that SC will drop back to 2 birds, shorter season, later season start, and that I dont like it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I would support all these. Not so much support for no afternoon hunting for all or part of season.
With that said, in my opinion, the only real talking point there is the later start date under the theory of not interupting optimal breeding/ nest initation season. All the other points are aimed directly gobbler harvest. Though harvest reduction could / would have some impact, my concern is that I am not seeing the hens around to take advantage of that optimal breeding/ nest initiation. Though a few may take liberties on it,or make a mistake every once in a while, we are not harvesting hens. I am careful to not use the word killing, because we may be doing that. Increasing gobbler numbers will not matter if we don't have hens. It is a biological fact that any population cannot sustain without enough females. Even if we drop gobbler harvest by 50% but have no ladies for those fellows, we are screwed. And before it comes up, I know about pecking order and bredding among dominant animals. But push comes to shove and she will breed with what is available. They are genetically wired to do that. Most animals are.
With that said, in my opinion, the only real talking point there is the later start date under the theory of not interupting optimal breeding/ nest initation season. All the other points are aimed directly gobbler harvest. Though harvest reduction could / would have some impact, my concern is that I am not seeing the hens around to take advantage of that optimal breeding/ nest initiation. Though a few may take liberties on it,or make a mistake every once in a while, we are not harvesting hens. I am careful to not use the word killing, because we may be doing that. Increasing gobbler numbers will not matter if we don't have hens. It is a biological fact that any population cannot sustain without enough females. Even if we drop gobbler harvest by 50% but have no ladies for those fellows, we are screwed. And before it comes up, I know about pecking order and bredding among dominant animals. But push comes to shove and she will breed with what is available. They are genetically wired to do that. Most animals are.
SC turkey guy
Member
You are right they will not propose. Maybe suggest. And definitely won’t push. I attended one of these meetings. Interesting, but also full of it.
Not sure how aware you are of our regulations, but they made illegal natural deer urine on the one in probably ten million chance it could contain CWD. Yet they won’t move to stop one of the top ways of spreading it.
Also, when asked how soon after breeding that a hen could lay a fertilized egg, his response was “right then, and went in to try to convince us that when you see a hen get bred and she walks off, she’s going to lay immediately, as in within minutes. He’s a biologist but does not know that chickens, turkeys, etc. ovulate approximately every 26 hrs, egg is fertilized from stored sperm in sperm storage tubes(SSTs) and then takes another 26-36 hrs to develop into a hard shelled egg and be laid. And she may actually breed days prior to start of ovulation. He expected us to believe that the gobbler left a little something on a hard shelled egg and BINGO it’s a viable egg. Not sure if he thought we were just ignorant or he just didn’t know.
Definite did not gain any confidence
SC turkey guy
Member
Also said they would propose nothing unless asked, because they want to finish a study that they have 2 years left to do. When asked about aflatoxin “ there are no studies show it to be detrimental to wild turkeys”. When offered the 20 yr old data that NWTF and all the southern states DNR’s paid for ( and he should have) he changed the subject.
buckpasser
Senior Member
@SC turkey guy
I’m waiting on toxin studies as I feel there is a real issue concerning corn on the ground and then in the diet of turkeys.
As for the delayed season dates, I think they are based on an unfounded and so far unproven theory. TN and GA are two exhibits of this being a flop. I’m all about more and better hunter opportunity, just not doing something for the sake of doing something. Thoughts?
I’m waiting on toxin studies as I feel there is a real issue concerning corn on the ground and then in the diet of turkeys.
As for the delayed season dates, I think they are based on an unfounded and so far unproven theory. TN and GA are two exhibits of this being a flop. I’m all about more and better hunter opportunity, just not doing something for the sake of doing something. Thoughts?
SC turkey guy
Member
Buckpasser,
Scroll up to next page where I have attached a study from 2000. If you would like more info I have dug up a lot and still digging. I can post here or PM and send to you
Scroll up to next page where I have attached a study from 2000. If you would like more info I have dug up a lot and still digging. I can post here or PM and send to you
SC turkey guy
Member
Studies have been ongoing since the discovery of it in 1963, after it killed 110,000 domestic turkeys.
buckpasser
Senior Member
I scrolled up. Nice info! I’ve heard enough from biologists (mostly on the turkey science podcasts) that I’m pretty dug in on the feeding topic, so no need for more info for me.
Throwback
Chief Big Taw
There needs to be studies by a disinterested third party.
billy336
Senior Member
Stopped putting out cracked corn and started with wheat and milo instead. Numbers were down, now they’ve really made a rebound. These are Osceolas, not Easterns, but I doubt subspecies matters
Much.
Much.
I find that hard to believe, otherwise how have they survived and thrived over the thousands of years with all the climate changes they`ve endured during that time.
Wanderlust
Senior Member
Almost comical how "they" blame everything on climate change.
DRBugman85
Senior Member
And THEY VOTE
Gaswamp
Senior Member
I think if it had been left to the biologist and scientist baiting wud not having been made legal for hunting deer
WOODIE13
2023 TURKEY CHALLENGE 1st place Team
Just use crickets...
