detailed study on dates of Jesus date of birth

04ctd

Senior Member
not mine, I meet these fine folks, and found it on their website.
https://sites.google.com/a/philandpatti.com/www02/

they support/visit missionaries in Isreal, so they often have an insight that we do not, like an "Inn" at that time would have been a room in a family members house, and to say there was "no room at the Inn" could have meant the family members would not let them in, since she was heavy with child, and they were not married.


you can download it in WORD here, and it is much easier to read, this forum did not keep the italics:



Jesus and the Feast of Tabernacles

Much of the world celebrates the birth of Jesus on the 25th of December. Why? Is this the actual day of Jesus' birth? How do we know when to honor His birth? Scripture doesn’t tell us exactly when Jesus was born, but there are some clues, some puzzle pieces that we can put together that will give a better picture. Some of these puzzle pieces are found in the Bible and some are found in historical records and documentation.

God includes some of the puzzle pieces by giving us a few seemingly insignificant times and numbers. In order to place the date of Jesus’ birth, we need to first place the time of the birth of John the Baptist. We begin to put the puzzle together with a few pieces from the book of Luke and visit the priest Zechariah and his barren wife Elizabeth, a relative of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Luke 1:5
In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.

Zechariah was of the Levitical division of Abijah. In the time of King David, the priests were separated into 24 turns or divisions for their appointed order of ministering. After the 24 groups of priests were established, lots were drawn to determine the sequence in which each group would serve in the temple. These turns began in the first month of the Jewish calendar, the month of Nisan.
1 Chr 24:19
This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the LORD, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their forefather Aaron, as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded him.
The appointed order of turns for ministering rotated every week until they reached the end of the sixth month, when the cycle was repeated until the end of the year. This meant that Zechariah’s division served at the temple twice a year for their regular turn of service. They, along with all the other divisions would also be required to serve on special occasions during the three commanded festival days of the Lord. The three festival days of the Lord were Feast of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and Feast of Tabernacles.

Luke 1:8-9
Once when Zechariah's division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense.

This account in Luke takes place when it was Zechariah’s division’s turn. There are two possible times for Zechariah’s regular time of service at the temple. The Bible does not specify which turn of service this one was. Beginning with the first month, Nisan, in the spring (March-April), the schedule of the priests’ turn of duty would result in Zechariah serving during the 10th week of the year because he was a member of the course of Abijah, the 8th course (1 Chr 24:10) and at this time both the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Pentecost would have already occurred. This places one of Zechariah’s turns in the temple beginning in the third month of the year during the month of Sivan (June). Regardless of which turn of service, Zechariah went home after his turn of service to his wife Elizabeth and she conceived. Due to laws of separation (Leviticus 12:5, 15:19, 25) two additional weeks must be counted, so most likely Elizabeth conceived John about two weeks after Zechariah’s return.

Let’s suppose Luke is recording the first turn of service which took place during the month of Sivan. Going forward nine months, this would place John’s birth in early spring,
at the time of the Jewish Passover. There are another couple of clues from Scripture that lets us know that this was Zechariah’s first turn of service. There are connections with the prophet Elijah, John, and Passover. The angel told Zechariah that John was to come “in the spirit and power of Elijah”. The Old Testament prophet Malachi tells us that God will send Elijah before the coming Messiah. (Malachi 3:1, 4:5-6) Even Jesus made the connection between John and Elijah.
Matt 17:10-13
The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

The Jews look for Elijah to return on the day of Passover. Still today, there is an empty chair and a table setting for Elijah whenever Passover is celebrated. Everything points to the birth of John the Baptist to take place at Passover.

Luke 1:10-17
And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside. Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous-- to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Luke 1:23-24
When his time of service was completed, he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.

By the way, there were a great number of priests on duty during Zechariah’s turn so when “he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense” it was a rare high honor. No priest was allowed to serve in this capacity more than once in his lifetime. So, Zechariah had waited his entire life for this opportunity. Coincidence???
Placing the conception of John shortly after Zechariah returns from his temple service sometime in June (modern calendar) , let’s go forward six months to the month of December (modern calendar).

Luke records that Elizabeth was six months pregnant when the angel Gabriel visited Mary.
Luke 1:26-31
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.
Luke 1:36
Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.

The beginning of Elizabeth’s sixth month would have been in December during the celebration of the Jewish feast of Hanukkah, also known as the Feast of Dedication and the Festival of Lights. The conception of Jesus (the light of the world – John 8:12) would have taken place during Hanukkah. Incidentally, it was the custom in ancient Israel to count the years of one's age from the date of conception - in other words, when a child is born he is one year old until his first birthday (this is still a practice in some oriental cultures today). So Jesus’ conception, not His birth occurred in mid December.

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If Jesus’ conception occurred in mid December, then Jesus would have been born nine months later during the Jewish month of Tishri. This month corresponds with our month of September. However, this year 2008 is a Jewish leap year (occurs every seven years) in which there is an additional month. So this year the month of Tishri corresponds with our month of October. Is there documentation that Jesus was born during this time of year? Again we go to Scripture for additional puzzle pieces. This one is from Luke.
Luke 2:8
And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
At the time that Jesus was born there were shepherds living in the fields. Shepherds lived in the open country during the months from spring until the rainy season, which began most often in early October. This would not have been mid December. There would have been no grass for the sheep to eat. It would have been sometime before the rainy season.

Earlier we established that John the Baptist was born during the time of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Passover) one of three main festival days of the Lord. We have established the month of Jesus’ conception as mid December which places His birth in mid September. Feast of Tabernacles is celebrated in the seventh month, the month of Tishri, corresponding with our months of September or October (according to whether or not it is leap year). Is there reason to believe that Jesus may have been born during the Feast of Tabernacles?

John gives us a piece of the puzzle.
John 1:14a
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
The “Word” is Jesus who was born a baby. He made His dwelling among us. The Greek word “dwelling” means “to encamp, to make a temporary residence, to tabernacle”

Jesus came to earth as a baby to “tabernacle” among us, to take up temporary residence with us.
The Feast of Tabernacles is an eight day festival. If Jesus was born on the first day of the feast, then he would have been circumcised on the eighth day of the feast.
Luke 2:21
On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.

So we can place the date of Jesus’ birth during the Feast of Tabernacles. Can we know the year? We again return to Scripture for that piece of the puzzle.

Matthew gives us the piece of that puzzle. After Jesus was born, Joseph was warned in a dream to take Jesus and His mother to Egypt until the death of Herod.

Matt 2:14-15
So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled

Jesus was born while Herod was in power. Matthew tells us that wise men from the east appeared in Jerusalem and inquired of Herod concerning the birth of the “king of the Jews”. The possibility of another “king” in the midst angered Herod so much that he ordered the deaths of all baby boys aged two years and younger. Of course Joseph by this time had already taken Jesus safely to Egypt.

According to the Jewish historian, Josephus, Herod died in the spring of 4 B.C. This means that Jesus was born before 4 B.C. at least one to two years before, either 5 B.C or 6 B.C. A date of 5 B.C. fits with other Biblical data. Jesus was “about” 30 when He began His official teaching mission. (Luke 3:23). We know that Jesus was baptized in or around 27 AD based on the scripture account in Luke 3:1
In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar-- when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene--

We say in or around 27 AD because Tiberius Caesar ruled prior to his “official” rule that began in 14 AD. Scripture tells us that Jesus started His ministry when He was about 30 years of age. We do not know for certain that He was baptized at the very beginning of His ministry. As a cross reference for date finding, we add three years to the date of 27 AD and arrive at 30 AD as the date of Jesus’ crucifixion. In looking at the Hebrew calendar we discover that all the Biblical days of Holy week exactly match the Hebrew calendar year 3790 (30 AD). None of the years immediately before or after 30 AD match the Biblical timeline. It is established by Biblical truth with calendar and scientific cross references. So the birth year of 5 B.C. fits with the date of crucifixion in 30 A.D.

We have placed the birth of Jesus during the Feast of Tabernacles in 5 B.C., using several Biblical and historical references. As a “cherry on the top”, ponder this.

Many times in Scripture darkness is associated with evil and Satan as the ruler of the darkness or the night. In Genesis 1:16a we read,
“God made two great lights-- the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light (the moon) to govern the night”.
What better way to illustrate that the birth of Jesus overshadowed the ruler of the night, than with a lunar eclipse? In 5 B.C. on September 15 in the nation of Israel there was a total lunar eclipse. September 15 of that year just “happened” to fall on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles! Coincidence???

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The birth of Jesus took place during the Feast of Tabernacles in the fall of the year and not on the traditional date of December 25. The Feast of Tabernacles was one of three great annual feasts of the Hebrew people: the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

Each of these days listed in the Old Testament have the prophetic fulfillment in the New Testament beginning with the coming of the Messiah associated with the Feast of Tabernacles.

Col 2:17
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Matt 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
When He came to earth as a baby in Bethlehem, Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Tabernacles. When Jesus suffered and died for our sins, He fulfilled the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Passover, and the Day of Atonement. When He ascended into heaven and presented Himself to God, the Father, He fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits. When He sent the Holy Spirit He fulfilled Pentecost. In all the feasts and festivals the people of Israel remembered their past and renewed their faith in the Lord who created and sustained them. Should we as Christians celebrate these Holy Days today?
One thing we have learned in our study of God’s Word is that He makes things perfectly clear! We especially like how He has described life in the Millennium when it comes to honoring the festivals and feast days, His Holy Days.

While the people in the Millennium will celebrate all the appointed feasts, the Feast of Tabernacles and the Passover are specifically named.

Zechariah 14:16-17
Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain.

Deuteronomy 31:10-13
Then Moses commanded them: "At the end of every seven years, in the year for canceling debts, during the Feast of Tabernacles, when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place he will choose, you shall read this law before them in their hearing. Assemble the people-- men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns-- so they can listen and learn to fear the LORD your God and follow carefully all the words of this law. Their children, who do not know this law, must hear it and learn to fear the LORD your God as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess."
(See also Nehemiah 8:14-18)

If honoring and celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles is required during the Millennium, shouldn’t we honor it today?

It is important for us as Christians to honor these Holy Days today, not in the way that was done before the Messiah came, but to honor Jesus as the fulfillment of those days. Part of honoring Him is to also remember our past as the people of Israel remembered their past. We have additional things to remember on this side of the cross. We remember Jesus’ birth, death, resurrection, and our salvation through Him.

Who we honor is far more important than when we honor Him. We praise Him that He came to “tabernacle” among us and He was and is "God with us."

Matt 1:23
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-- which means, "God with us."
 

Bama4me

Senior Member
Out of all the times of the year that Jesus would have been born, it wasn't in December. If you check out Luke 2:1ff, you'll notice the Roman emperor was conducting a worldwide census... which for many (including Jesus' family) meant significant travel because one had to register in his hometown.

There would have been one major reason there was a census... for the purpose of taxation. Thus, the Roman government would have been VERY interested in making sure to plan the census at a time of the year when travel was most conducive. In that part of the world, travel (especially on the Mediterranean Sea) became very difficult.

Thus, I'm pretty certain one time of the year Jesus WASN'T born was during that rough time of travel... generally from November to the following March every year. It amazes me how many Christians in the world actually believe proof exists that Jesus' birthday was on the 25th of December.
 

gtparts

Senior Member
Another key thing to remember is that typically shepherds were not in the fields with their sheep at night in December. Even today sheep are not usually left exposed to the weather that is common in that region in December, at least not by one who genuinely cares for his animals.
 

Dominic

Banned
A point…

No one has said Christ was definitely born on December 25th. December 25th was a chosen to celebrate and honor his birth, not to say “He was born this day no questions ask”, the date is of little importance.

But since it’s come up…

If Zachary was serving during the second half of the year that would that put him serving in October making the visit from Mary around March, John would have been born in June and Christ six months later in December.
 

Bama4me

Senior Member
A point…

No one has said Christ was definitely born on December 25th. December 25th was a chosen to celebrate and honor his birth, not to say “He was born this day no questions ask”, the date is of little importance.

But since it’s come up…

If Zachary was serving during the second half of the year that would that put him serving in October making the visit from Mary around March, John would have been born in June and Christ six months later in December.

I know MANY folks who claim it's the actual date. When you mention what I cited above to them, the usual response is disbelief.
 

Dominic

Banned
Out of all the times of the year that Jesus would have been born, it wasn't in December. If you check out Luke 2:1ff, you'll notice the Roman emperor was conducting a worldwide census... which for many (including Jesus' family) meant significant travel because one had to register in his hometown.

There would have been one major reason there was a census... for the purpose of taxation. Thus, the Roman government would have been VERY interested in making sure to plan the census at a time of the year when travel was most conducive. In that part of the world, travel (especially on the Mediterranean Sea) became very difficult.

Thus, I'm pretty certain one time of the year Jesus WASN'T born was during that rough time of travel... generally from November to the following March every year. It amazes me how many Christians in the world actually believe proof exists that Jesus' birthday was on the 25th of December.

I know MANY folks who claim it's the actual date. When you mention what I cited above to them, the usual response is disbelief.

Joseph was required, according to Luke, to return to his ancestral home not necessarily the town he was born in.

The Roman world of the time communication and travel would have been very different. Even in modern terms a census can take a year to complete. 2,000 years ago a census could take multiple years to complete. How could you know when they would or would not travel?
 

Dominic

Banned
Another key thing to remember is that typically shepherds were not in the fields with their sheep at night in December. Even today sheep are not usually left exposed to the weather that is common in that region in December, at least not by one who genuinely cares for his animals.

What is the common weather for that region in December?
 

Bama4me

Senior Member
Joseph was required, according to Luke, to return to his ancestral home not necessarily the town he was born in.

The Roman world of the time communication and travel would have been very different. Even in modern terms a census can take a year to complete. 2,000 years ago a census could take multiple years to complete. How could you know when they would or would not travel?

It's common sense... the Roman government would benefit from having the maximum amount of people register due to the more accurate base for taxation. Thus, it would make sense to plan a census at a time period when travel was easier... not harder. The three great Jewish feasts also happened to be at better travel times as well. Why are you so dead set that it WAS in December?
 

Dominic

Banned
It's common sense... the Roman government would benefit from having the maximum amount of people register due to the more accurate base for taxation. Thus, it would make sense to plan a census at a time period when travel was easier... not harder. The three great Jewish feasts also happened to be at better travel times as well. Why are you so dead set that it WAS in December?

Why would travel be harder?

I haven't said it was December. I don't know when it was. I guess I wonder why it would matter?
 

Bama4me

Senior Member
Why would travel be harder?

I haven't said it was December. I don't know when it was. I guess I wonder why it would matter?

Roads... weather... etc. It's well-documented that travel in many places nearly ceased during the winter months. As an example, the vast majority of shipping ceased on the Mediterranean Sea during the winter months due to the weather conditions.
 

Dominic

Banned
Roads... weather... etc. It's well-documented that travel in many places nearly ceased during the winter months. As an example, the vast majority of shipping ceased on the Mediterranean Sea during the winter months due to the weather conditions.

I know that the average temperature in Bethlehem in December is 55 with the average low 48 and the average high 64, and that while it does rain about 50 days during the 5 winter months, that works about to about 10 days a month, snow fall is a rare event. The weather in Bethlehem during the winter does not seem anymore extreme then that of Georgia. In fact Atlanta’s average temperature in December is actually lower than that of Bethlehem at 49, and we have the same average of 10 days of rainfall, snow is also a rare event. I don’t see what is so extreme about the weather the make travel so difficult.

Could you share some of the well-documented cases of the travel nearly ceasing? I’ve looked around and have not been able to find any.
 

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
I don't think the date is important. The Birth is what the focus should be on and sadly it seems to be the last thing on everyone's mind come Christmas time.
 

Bama4me

Senior Member
Could you share some of the well-documented cases of the travel nearly ceasing? I’ve looked around and have not been able to find any.

I'm sorry I hit a nerve with you somewhere along in this thread... because it's obvious you're insinuating that I'm making this up as I go along. If you google "winter travel on mediterranean sea in biblical times", you'll find several references. Here are the top three results... I'd say it was "well-documented", don't you agree?

http://baptistbiblebelievers.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=sy-JQySRaOI=&tabid=232&mid=762

http://www.bible-history.com/links....name=Manners+&+Customs&subcat_name=Sea+Travel

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Acts/Caesarea-Crete-Storm

By the way, a couple more things about the travel... taking a census meant EVERYONE in the family had to make the trip, so it was a harder trip than usual. They also generally had to walk the roads... which would have been muddier during the winter months than in the drier times. The regions the Jews had to travel as well had many elevation changes... Jericho for instances is 2000 feet below Jerusalem. And, in the case of Luke 2:1ff, Jews from countries away from the Palestine region could've been forced to travel back to their original towns. When you add all this stuff up, it's HIGHLY unlikely the Romans would declare a census during a time when travel was harder... not impossible, but unlikely.
 

Dominic

Banned
I'm sorry I hit a nerve with you somewhere along in this thread... because it's obvious you're insinuating that I'm making this up as I go along.
My apologizes I thought the forum was for discussion. If someone doesn't ask questions where is the discussion?

If you google "winter travel on mediterranean sea in biblical times", you'll find several references. Here are the top three results... I'd say it was "well-documented", don't you agree?

http://baptistbiblebelievers.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=sy-JQySRaOI=&tabid=232&mid=762

http://www.bible-history.com/links....name=Manners+&+Customs&subcat_name=Sea+Travel

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Acts/Caesarea-Crete-Storm

We must have crossed wires. I thought you were talking about travel by land, since Mary and Joseph would have been traveling by land.

The second source does mention travel by land and points to Mackie. Unfortunately Mackie does not source how he came about the information.

I at least am talking about travel by land.


By the way, a couple more things about the travel... taking a census meant EVERYONE in the family had to make the trip, so it was a harder trip than usual. They also generally had to walk the roads... which would have been muddier during the winter months than in the drier times. The regions the Jews had to travel as well had many elevation changes... Jericho for instances is 2000 feet below Jerusalem. And, in the case of Luke 2:1ff, Jews from countries away from the Palestine region could've been forced to travel back to their original towns. When you add all this stuff up, it's HIGHLY unlikely the Romans would declare a census during a time when travel was harder... not impossible, but unlikely.

Didn't Wight say they would mostly travel by mule, horse, or donkey. Of course he also talks about summer travel, mentioning winter problems of travel, but then he never talks about those problems.

Traveling in August temps would hit the high 80's, I don't know if a pregnant woman would be safe traveling in that kind of heat. Of course traveling in the rain would also be hard.

There is no doubt the 75 miles from Nazareth to Bethlehem would have been a hard trip. Summer travel would have been brutally hot during the day, limiting travel to night. While winter travel could have been wet, the average rain fall during the winter is only ten days per month, the temperatures an average low of 45 and high of 64 would have made travel possible either day or night.

I doubt the Romans cared when people traveled. The census would take at least a year or more to complete. They likely wanted folks to travel at anytime as long as they were counted.
 

Bama4me

Senior Member
My apologizes I thought the forum was for discussion. If someone doesn't ask questions where is the discussion?

Discussion... yes. Insinuating that someone is making facts up... no. "Could you share some of the well-documented cases of the travel nearly ceasing? I’ve looked around and have not been able to find any."

Come on now... especially when the first hits off a google search show exactly what you're looking for. :rolleyes:
 

Bama4me

Senior Member
We must have crossed wires. I thought you were talking about travel by land, since Mary and Joseph would have been traveling by land.

Didn't Wight say they would mostly travel by mule, horse, or donkey. Of course he also talks about summer travel, mentioning winter problems of travel, but then he never talks about those problems.

Traveling in August temps would hit the high 80's, I don't know if a pregnant woman would be safe traveling in that kind of heat. Of course traveling in the rain would also be hard.

There is no doubt the 75 miles from Nazareth to Bethlehem would have been a hard trip. Summer travel would have been brutally hot during the day, limiting travel to night. While winter travel could have been wet, the average rain fall during the winter is only ten days per month, the temperatures an average low of 45 and high of 64 would have made travel possible either day or night.

I doubt the Romans cared when people traveled. The census would take at least a year or more to complete. They likely wanted folks to travel at anytime as long as they were counted.

I never said traveled ceased in Palestine... if you'll go back and read again what I stated I said "It's well-documented that travel in many places nearly ceased during the winter months."

The point once again is that this census didn't just involve Joseph and his family... it involved every Jew living around the world. If Jews had to travel back to "their own towns", that meant you had travel from other places outside of the Palestine area. If I hear you correctly, you're saying the Roman government wouldn't care that someone would have to go through the experience Paul went through in Acts 27 in order to return home?

Simply google "travel in New Testament times" and one can see the travel habits of people in that day - it doesn't matter what the average temperatures, rainfall total, etc. were.
 

Dominic

Banned
Discussion... yes. Insinuating that someone is making facts up... no. "Could you share some of the well-documented cases of the travel nearly ceasing? I’ve looked around and have not been able to find any."

Come on now... especially when the first hits off a google search show exactly what you're looking for. :rolleyes:

As I said you were talking specifically about travel by sea, and I was thinking travel by land.

I could not find well documented case of travel nearly ceasing by land.

You provided three links two of which were the same thing from the same source about sea travel. If I’m being honest neither show solid documentation. Yes Paul had difficulty traveling by sea, but how would that relate to Mary and Joseph not traveling in the winter.


I never said traveled ceased in Palestine... if you'll go back and read again what I stated I said "It's well-documented that travel in many places nearly ceased during the winter months."

I never said you did.

The point once again is that this census didn't just involve Joseph and his family... it involved every Jew living around the world. If Jews had to travel back to "their own towns", that meant you had travel from other places outside of the Palestine area.

It would and it would also mean that people would travel when they needed to not necessarily waiting until everyone, all the other Jews, was ready to or able to go.

If I hear you correctly, you're saying the Roman government wouldn't care that someone would have to go through the experience Paul went through in Acts 27 in order to return home?

Yes, you do hear me correctly. The Romans likely didn’t care. They wanted people registered.

Simply google "travel in New Testament times" and one can see the travel habits of people in that day - it doesn't matter what the average temperatures, rainfall total, etc. were.

Why wouldn’t actually traveling conditions matter? If you were going to ride a mule 75 miles you’d likely worry about what the temperature might be, if it might snow, if it might rain, or maybe if you couldn’t travel by day because of the heat.

I did google "travel in New Testament times" and learned that the Romans were pretty road builders, making travel at all times of the year easier.

There is a good article on the topic by Dr. Michael Avi-Yonah from the Israel Exploration Journal Vol. 1 No. 1

"And they went along the Roman roads through Amphipolis and Apollonia." -Acts of the Apostles, 17:1
Here’s a small piece of the topic.
http://lancefuhrer.com/roman_roads.htm

Here’s a map
http://copiosa.org/christmas/caravan_routes.htm

By the time of Christ the Roman road system was well established and well built.

Given the conditions I see no reason why Mary and Joseph could not have traveled in December from Nazareth to Bethlehem.
 
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Bama4me

Senior Member
I could not find well documented case of travel nearly ceasing by land.

You provided three links two of which were the same thing from the same source about sea travel. If I’m being honest neither show solid documentation. Yes Paul had difficulty traveling by sea, but how would that relate to Mary and Joseph not traveling in the winter.

It would and it would also mean that people would travel when they needed to not necessarily waiting until everyone, all the other Jews, was ready to or able to go.

Yes, you do hear me correctly. The Romans likely didn’t care. They wanted people registered.

Why wouldn’t actually traveling conditions matter? If you were going to ride a mule 75 miles you’d likely worry about what the temperature might be, if it might snow, if it might rain, or maybe if you couldn’t travel by day because of the heat.

I did google "travel in New Testament times" and learned that the Romans were pretty road builders, making travel at all times of the year easier.

By the time of Christ the Roman road system was well established and well built.

Given the conditions I see no reason why Mary and Joseph could not have traveled in December from Nazareth to Bethlehem.

First, you state that Romans didn't care about when they required people to travel. Can you document that? I can document the fact that the Romans took census' for the purpose of taxation... and it's about 99.9% possible they would very much "care" that a maximum amount of people could register. Since I know you're going to ask to document my basis...

"It has been established that the taking of a census was quite common at about the time of Christ. An ancient Latin inscription called the Titulus Venetus indicates that a census took place in Syria and Judea about AD 5-6 and that this was typical of those held throughout the Roman Empire from the time of Augustus (23 BC-AD 14) until at least the third century AD. Indications are that this census took place every fourteen years. Other such evidence indicates that these procedures were widespread [2. Ibid., pp. 193-194]. Concerning persons returning to their home city for the taxation-census, an Egyptian papyrus dating from AD 104 reports just such a practice. This rule was enforced, as well [3. Ibid. p. 194]." - http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/firstcensus.htm

Second, your assertion about "Romans road systems being good by the time of Christ" is VERY misleading. Roads leading from one major city to another were usually well-built... but not all roads in their territories. Since I know you're going to want documentation, here's a quote and a link to a map of Palestine... which shows/describes road conditions Jesus would have traveled.

"In ancient Israel most people traveled on foot and Israel was a difficult place to travel. The highways and roads connected travelers to the 6 parallel divisions in the topography, Israel's cities and villages, the Dead Sea, and the Negev. The Hebrews generally followed their small roads but they were not into major road construction as the Romans were. In fact the Hebrew word for road means a beaten worn out path. Road construction would have been difficult for any skillful engineer because of the topography of the land. When Jesus journeyed from Jerusalem through the land of Samaria (John 4) there were no special roads but large dirt paths with some stone. As He journeyed around Nazareth and the surrounding villages in Galilee He was following beaten dirt tracks, with little road making. - http://www.bible-history.com/maps/ancient-roads-in-israel.html

Third, since you insist that night travel would have been far more desirable than daytime travel, here's some material which indicates such would not have been done. - http://books.google.com/books?id=eW...el conditions palestine first century&f=false

Everything I've ever read in commentaries/resource books on first century travel has mentioned travel was difficult for the people living then. Winter rains would have compounded that hardship to some extent. I don't know why you won't concede that fact... it's well-attested.
 
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Dominic

Banned
You read what you want from those articles. Read a few others sources and you'll find that Roman road systems were well-built between major cities... not all roads.

Provide them and I will. If you look at the map provided you'd see a nice pink line indicating a Roman road running from Nazareth to Bethlehem.

I only cited the first three articles that popped up from the search on "travel and the Mediterranean Sea".

Wait, you say you had "well-documented cases", I ask for them and you provide "the first three articles(I think you mean links) that pop up" and present them as your "well-documented cases". Now I will say you're just pulling stuff out of the air.

Every book I've ever read which covers the subject from biblical times agree - travel during the winter months was more difficult than at other times of the year.

Then give me the names. I have access to millions of books, and would like to see these too.


Your last statement really says it all - you want to believe what you want to believe based on looking at things from our times, not their's.

Can you provide any evidence that the climate of area was any different in 5 BC then it is in 2013?

The period in which Jesus was born is called the Roman climate optimum or the Roman Warm Period and was not much different from today, it may have even been a little warmer.


As far as the Romans and what was important to them - money was close to the top of the list and census' played a prominent role in profit.

Money was at the top and again I doubt Rome cared how or when the Jews got to where they were to register just as long as they got there.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
But we must realize the importance of counting everyone and that Mary & Joseph weren't the only ones traveling. They might have had an autobahn but all the Jews didn't.
 

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