Did you ever consider that Christianity as we know it is not simple. It is very complex--even though we might not want to admit it.

[SemperFiDawg]

@gordon 2. You asked this question in the other thread, and it precisely nailed some thoughts that had been running around in my head for a few days. It also underlies a point of much contention and angst here in the spiritual forum from believers and non-believers alike. I'd like to address it as you worded it very succintly.

Did you ever consider that Christianity as we know it is not simple. It is very complex--even though we might not want to admit it.

Here's my stand on the matter. The Gospel itself is a concept that is so simple a child can understand it. That is not an accident, it's by design. It isn't and never was for only those with a PhD in theology to "get".

Christianity, literally "Christ-like," is just as simple to understand. How can't it be. The example he set for us to live by is easily comprehendible through a reading of just the 4 Gospels. Acts and Romans go on to further reinforce them. None of that is incomprehensible nor even difficult to comprehend. It's simple.

You assert "It is very complex..." What everyone witnesses here, and what is a thorn to many on the outside looking in on these discussions is they know the Gospels and even the Bible, even the unbelievers. They know the themes, the contexts, and they know what "Christ-like" is supposed to look like and they know it's not complicated, complex or incomprehensible. Then they look at the discussions here and they are incomprehensible. What's more they are purposefully incomprehensible. If it is not purposeful then how does one explain how a poster can comprehend a simple post and then respond in an incomprehensible manner. Clearly the poster can comprehend simple thoughts. Is it reasonable to expect that the same poster is incapable of conveying simple thoughts? So I ask, to what end? Why would someone take a simple, life giving message and make it incomprehensible?

Even if one grants the notion that Christianity IS complex, which I obviously don't, but if you believe it indeed edifies, conveys hope, and carries the message of life, why make it even more complex instead of simple? What purpose is served by making it more inaccessible, more incomprehensible, more difficult to attain? Do people who understand the basic Gospel and what Christ-like is supposed to look like, whether they believe it or not, whether they buy into it or not, at least see it exemplified in these discussions, or do they see just another example of frauds?

Listen, I get that with "Christianity" in a theology context, you can follow that down the rabbit hole as deep as you want to go and I won't say you shouldn't. I will just say maybe ask yourself if you need an audience to do so, and consider having those discussions through private messages. If you need an audience to discuss deep theological theory, then it ain't about the discussion but about how you want to be perceived by the audience.

I'll say this from my personal experience. I've spent a lot of time and effort going down theological rabbit holes: prophecy, apologetics, church history to a minor extent. There was no life for me in any of it. I may have well been studying chemistry.
The only life I've found is in the simplicity of the Gospel. Every other 'study' is playing spiritual whack-a-mole, hoping to hit The Spiritual Life. The Gospel IS the spiritual life. It's the simplest concept of any of it, yet living it is all consuming and all rewarding. That's where the life is and I submit that's what we should be sharing, because that's what people not only need, but are truly looking for. They just are burnt out on the fraudulent stuff masking itself as 'christianity'. They ain't stupid. They know they will know the real thing when it shows itself. They just ain't seeing it.

 

[gordon 2]

@gordon 2. You asked this question in the other thread, and it precisely nailed some thoughts that had been running around in my head for a few days. It also underlies a point of much contention and angst here in the spiritual forum from believers and non-believers alike. I'd like to address it as you worded it very succintly.


Here's my stand on the matter. The Gospel itself is a concept that is so simple a child can understand it. That is not an accident, it's by design. It isn't and never was for only those with a PhD in theology to "get".

Christianity, literally "Christ-like," is just as simple to understand. How can't it be. The example he set for us to live by is easily comprehendible through a reading of just the 4 Gospels. Acts and Romans go on to further reinforce them. None of that is incomprehensible nor even difficult to comprehend. It's simple.

You assert "It is very complex..." What everyone witnesses here, and what is a thorn to many on the outside looking in on these discussions is they know the Gospels and even the Bible, even the unbelievers. They know the themes, the contexts, and they know what "Christ-like" is supposed to look like and they know it's not complicated, complex or incomprehensible. Then they look at the discussions here and they are incomprehensible. What's more they are purposefully incomprehensible. If it is not purposeful then how does one explain how a poster can comprehend a simple post and then respond in an incomprehensible manner. Clearly the poster can comprehend simple thoughts. Is it reasonable to expect that the same poster is incapable of conveying simple thoughts? So I ask, to what end? Why would someone take a simple, life giving message and make it incomprehensible?

Even if one grants the notion that Christianity IS complex, which I obviously don't, but if you believe it indeed edifies, conveys hope, and carries the message of life, why make it even more complex instead of simple? What purpose is served by making it more inaccessible, more incomprehensible, more difficult to attain? Do people who understand the basic Gospel and what Christ-like is supposed to look like, whether they believe it or not, whether they buy into it or not, at least see it exemplified in these discussions, or do they see just another example of frauds?

Listen, I get that with "Christianity" in a theology context, you can follow that down the rabbit hole as deep as you want to go and I won't say you shouldn't. I will just say maybe ask yourself if you need an audience to do so, and consider having those discussions through private messages. If you need an audience to discuss deep theological theory, then it ain't about the discussion but about how you want to be perceived by the audience.

I'll say this from my personal experience. I've spent a lot of time and effort going down theological rabbit holes: prophecy, apologetics, church history to a minor extent. There was no life for me in any of it. I may have well been studying chemistry.
The only life I've found is in the simplicity of the Gospel. Every other 'study' is playing spiritual whack-a-mole, hoping to hit The Spiritual Life. The Gospel IS the spiritual life. It's the simplest concept of any of it, yet living it is all consuming and all rewarding. That's where the life is and I submit that's what we should be sharing, because that's what people not only need, but are truly looking for. They just are burnt out on the fraudulent stuff masking itself as 'christianity'. They ain't stupid. They know they will know the real thing when it shows itself. They just ain't seeing it.

I understand your point of view 100%. Or do I? Your posts reads to me that the Gospels' contents are sufficient and enough in themselves that all individuals can be Christ-like in their lives or strive to be and so the simplicity of Christianity for the individual and groupings and that the forums discussions should be focused on basic issues related to the Christian's faith life from this perspective? And most anything else on the forums is needless complexity and is suspect of vanity and fraud to the ordinary run of the mill Christian? Ordinary Christians don't care so much about "deep" dives into individual faith, they care about living the faith ( basic faith) in their ordinary day to day lives?

I do understand that the perception of Christianity by the enlightened for the enlightened is a bit much for many. Do I have this right?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I understand your point of view 100%. Or do I? Your posts reads to me that the Gospels' contents are sufficient and enough in themselves that all individuals can be Christ-like in their lives or strive to be and so the simplicity of Christianity for the individual and groupings and that the forums discussions should be focused on basic issues related to the Christian's faith life from this perspective? And most anything else on the forums is needless complexity and is suspect of vanity and fraud to the ordinary run of the mill Christian? Ordinary Christians don't care so much about "deep" dives into individual faith, they care about living the faith ( basic faith) in their ordinary day to day lives?

I do understand that the perception of Christianity by the enlightened for the enlightened is a bit much for many. Do I have this right?

I think you have a right to do pretty much anything you want to do. As a Christian I think we have to ask ourselves, "Is this Christ-like?" Hope you are better at doing that than I am.

As to the rest, I'm a plainspoken man. If I didn't say it, I didn't say it.

 

[brutally honest]

Here's my stand on the matter. The Gospel itself is a concept that is so simple a child can understand it. …

Christianity, literally "Christ-like," is just as simple to understand. How can't it be. The example he set for us to live by is easily comprehendible through a reading of just the 4 Gospels. Acts and Romans go on to further reinforce them. None of that is incomprehensible nor even difficult to comprehend. It's simple.

The basics are simple to understand but can be difficult to implement. What could be simpler than “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”? Yet, what American man thinks that’s easy? Not this one.

I think people find that living Christianity is much more difficult than understanding it. This drives some into spiritual “rabbit holes”. This is certainly true for me.

 

[GeorgiaBob]

My opinion of the Christian experience is both simple and very, very complex.

One the simple side, there is a God (just one) and a universe that includes this world and eternity. God created us in his image, gave us the ability to make our own choices, and then - when each of us made serious mistakes - God came to us as a person, lived amongst us, and sacrificed Himself. Because of God's gift to me I am able to again choose to be a part of that eternity. Clean, simple straightforward, honest, and understandable for anyone.

But beyond the simple there is an entire universe of depth, detail, experiences, and complexity for anyone who wished to explore this creation. Even the simple, can be very complex if you look closely. Have you ever wondered why God created mosquitoes that can carry deadly bacteria? Or why the minor instability of the sun, combined with the earth's axial tilt and orbital imperfections, cause the planet to warm for thousands of years, and then cool for even longer? And those questions are just about the biology or physics of a tiny piece of this created universe.

What about the concepts of good and evil? How do we slide from wholesome children into the pits of sinful life? How much of a "head start" do we need, as our time on this world approaches it's end, to seek forgiveness and be assured a place forever? There are answers to these questions (I don't have those answers, but the answers are somewhere).

Even the Bible is an enormously complex puzzle. Have you ever wondered how many times Paul's letter (written in Greek) to the people he met in the port city Ephesus was copied before one of those copies made it's way (a couple of hundred years later) into a fourth century collection of letters, stories, accounts, journals, and histories that a group of people assembled? We (mostly) consider the Bible to be the inspired Word of God but imagine the complexity of the many different people inspired to bring that truth through 2,000 years and so many different languages.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

The basics are simple to understand but can be difficult to implement. What could be simpler than “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”? Yet, what American man thinks that’s easy? Not this one.

I think people find that living Christianity is much more difficult than understanding it. This drives some into spiritual “rabbit holes”. This is certainly true for me.

Bingo. Bingo. Bingo. The Gospel is simple. The living it is hard. I agree with you in that talking about it, and even preaching about it is easier by far than living it . I also think that's precisely the reason we have so many 'theoretical discussions' and very, very few how-to, practical application threads. There's even less testimonials: this is how God spoke to me, helped me, healed me, did a miracle in my life today, helped my neighbor, brought me closer to him, etc. You can only speak as to what you know.

 

[BeerThirty]

Yes! Christianity is extremely complex. It is our weakness that non-believers constantly try to exploit because we don't always have a simple answer or explanation to their questions. It's very frustrating to me when average Christians get held to insanely high standards and then we get called out on it or our shortcomings.

 

[formula1]

The Gospel is simple but your enemy is trying to convince you otherwise!

Have you ever thought of the complexity built into the phrase ‘Did God Really say?’. The enemy of simple faith is the question.

 

[gordon 2]

The Gospel is simple but your enemy is trying to convince you otherwise!

Have you ever thought of the complexity built into the phrase ‘Did God Really say?’. The enemy of simple faith is the question.

The Gospel might be simple, but a 2000 yr history and 30 thousand sects and denominations many with their own bible commentators with their unique interpretations say Christianity ain't simple and that it is in real day to day fact quite complex. Maybe think of it from the perspective of a non-Christian or for the challenges in fellowship.

Note the tread has gone from a point of view that Christianity is complex to statements that the Gospel is simple rather than complex and the enemy ( the one that tricked Eve) is trying to make you believe that the gospel is complex.


Note to self definition: "A Red Herring argument is one that changes the subject, distracting the audience from the real issue to focus on something else where the speaker feels more comfortable and confident."

Regardless I will agree that the Gospel in big capital letter is simple to interpret, but the billion Christians that form what we know Christianity to be, both in the past and the present, make Christianity and so Christians objectively very complex.

 

[formula1]

And you thought it was just the one who tricked Eve…

 

[gordon 2]

And you thought it was just the one who tricked Eve…

 

[B. White]

I appreciate this post and the comments in it. I had thought about posting something this week very close to what you have. Even thinking simply as I do I could see it getting complex and was still thinking about how to word it. I would like to see more posts about the basics of everyday life and that with all the failures there is hope.

I rarely read too deeply or follow many of the threads in this forum. The subject of the forum or the regular users has nothing to do with it. I look at so called spiritual things no different than anything else. It is a part of everyone's life just just like gravity, whether they like it or not or choose to ignore it. Some may not agree with me. That is fine and doesn't hurt my feelings, but I owe it to them to post clearly enough for them to agree or disagree. It is kind of sad that we don't post in here more, since it is important to many of us.

I should be able apply the same thought process to my posts or replies in this forum as with any other. I try not to post anything in any forum unless I think my post answers a question they have asked, or if it is something I think might help someone. Forums vary, so sometimes a humorous reply is a good thing.

I look at this forum like I would a hunter or boating safety forum. My main goal would be that I hope anything I can add might help someone get home safely and not kill anyone else. Whether you wear a rock climbing harness that attaches in front or a Summit harness that came with your stand can be debated, but it shouldn't be to the point that someone reading misses why they need a harness in the first place. Context matters and there are folks reading this and probably will for years to come who have been going up and down the tree their whole life without a harness and will tune you out when you start quoting OSHA guidelines for personal fall protection.

The subject of faith is both very simple and complex. Every time I'm in the woods or gut a deer I'm reminded of the Creator. I don't pressure myself or others to understand all things He has in mind. I probably understand as much about the Creator as a fire ant understands about me. That is ok, because it starts with faith the size of a mustard seed. I will know the answers one day. I don't presume that day will come while I'm on this earth.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The rules of plumbing are also real simple. Come to think of it, so is huntin' and fishin'. This in perspective to the OP. Beyond the simple most men seek more knowledge than what is actually necessary.
Sometimes, the more you know, the more you don't know.

A man would be a lot better off just going to Church to get down the basics and then maybe stop at that point.

 

[brutally honest]

How should we live?

We should forgive. We should repent. We should love.

Why? Because these are things the demons never do.


(Sorry. Can’t remember the source. Just something I read.)

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I appreciate this post and the comments in it. I had thought about posting something this week very close to what you have. Even thinking simply as I do I could see it getting complex and was still thinking about how to word it. I would like to see more posts about the basics of everyday life and that with all the failures there is hope.

I rarely read too deeply or follow many of the threads in this forum. The subject of the forum or the regular users has nothing to do with it. I look at so called spiritual things no different than anything else. It is a part of everyone's life just just like gravity, whether they like it or not or choose to ignore it. Some may not agree with me. That is fine and doesn't hurt my feelings, but I owe it to them to post clearly enough for them to agree or disagree. It is kind of sad that we don't post in here more, since it is important to many of us.

I should be able apply the same thought process to my posts or replies in this forum as with any other. I try not to post anything in any forum unless I think my post answers a question they have asked, or if it is something I think might help someone. Forums vary, so sometimes a humorous reply is a good thing.

I look at this forum like I would a hunter or boating safety forum. My main goal would be that I hope anything I can add might help someone get home safely and not kill anyone else. Whether you wear a rock climbing harness that attaches in front or a Summit harness that came with your stand can be debated, but it shouldn't be to the point that someone reading misses why they need a harness in the first place. Context matters and there are folks reading this and probably will for years to come who have been going up and down the tree their whole life without a harness and will tune you out when you start quoting OSHA guidelines for personal fall protection.

The subject of faith is both very simple and complex. Every time I'm in the woods or gut a deer I'm reminded of the Creator. I don't pressure myself or others to understand all things He has in mind. I probably understand as much about the Creator as a fire ant understands about me. That is ok, because it starts with faith the size of a mustard seed. I will know the answers one day. I don't presume that day will come while I'm on this earth.

Well said Sir. Please post more.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

How should we live?

We should forgive. We should repent. We should love.

Why? Because these are things the demons never do.


(Sorry. Can’t remember the source. Just something I read.)

I always remind myself that demons could tell me more about God than I could grasp. They know his attributes much better than I, have seen him with their own eyes. They recognized Jesus for exactly who he was when even the disciples didn't fully grasp who was in their midst, but they are not his. Knowing about God isn't synonymous with knowing God. It neither imparts nor implies any relationship or allegiance. Faith, trust, and dependence are not required. It's simple comprehension of facts; knowledge of. That is all. There is no life in it.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Regardless I will agree that the Gospel in big capital letter is simple to interpret, but the billion Christians that form what we know Christianity to be, both in the past and the present, make Christianity and so Christians objectively very complex.

Why worry about the billion complexities when what's needed is application of the one Gospel? Is this not the universal answer to all of mankind's woes? Does anything truly worthy of praise happen outside of its practice?

 

[Madman]

Why worry about the billion complexities when what's needed is application of the one Gospel? Is this not the universal answer to all of mankind's woes? Does anything truly worthy of praise happen outside of its practice?

The message is simple, the application is the difficult part.

Christ is the answer.

Christ with me,
Christ before me,
Christ behind me,
Christ in me,
Christ beneath me,
Christ above me,
Christ on my right,
Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down,
Christ when I sit down,
Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.

Saint Patrick

 

[Madman]

Some have asked “why should I go to church?” Because Christ saves us as individuals and puts us in a family. The family of the Church.

There we are taught and edified, and loved, and directed, and sent out, to effect the world. We were dead, and yet now we are alive.

“I give you a new commandment, love one another, as I have loved you.”

 

[Spotlite]

The Gospel is simple but your enemy is trying to convince you otherwise!

Have you ever thought of the complexity built into the phrase ‘Did God Really say?’. The enemy of simple faith is the question.

Nailed it.

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ”