Did you ever consider that Christianity as we know it is not simple. It is very complex--even though we might not want to admit it.

[SemperFiDawg]

I am seeing a lot of man centered solutions for a problem that doesn't exist.

Salvation is of the Lord.

Most of us haven't reached a state of spiritual perfection. We still struggle with life and the problems it presents to include the pains and sorrows, the constant battle with our pride and our selfish desires, the instinctual desire to strike back when we are struck or insulted. We still have to put forth a lot of effort to maintain our spiritual walk with God and not fall into the snares Satan lays out. This stuff is for us, the lesser ones.

 

[B. White]

Most of us haven't reached a state of spiritual perfection. We still struggle with life and the problems it presents to include the pains and sorrows, the constant battle with our pride and our selfish desires, the instinctual desire to strike back when we are struck or insulted. We still have to put forth a lot of effort to maintain our spiritual walk with God and not fall into the snares Satan lays out. This stuff is for us, the lesser ones.

I see a lot of man-centered problems that require a Holy Spirit solution.

 

[gma1320]

I don’t understand.

Romans 10:14-15
14 But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? 15 And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”


The highlighted is the very definition of religion.

No that is the definition of faith

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I don’t understand.

Romans 10:14-15
14 But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? 15 And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”


The highlighted is the very definition of religion.

I think maybe you're missing the context Brother. He's not inferring that we shouldn't carry the message, but that we shouldn't muddy the message.

 

[gordon 2]

Maybe the Holy Spirit ministers in the faithful as the Church. . Maybe the Holy Spirit ministers in the schools of theology. Maybe the Holy Spirit ministers through the prophets. Maybe the Holy Spirit ministers trough prayers and fellowship.

Maybe the Holy Spirit cares that you are cleaned up from your once sloppiness in your fellowship.and again that you sometimes come as you are sloppy and untidy, talk your ear off and cryptic in dialogue even.

I think that the Holy Spirit ministering through the faithful in organization and in individuals regards the problems of the Church these days requires plain unmuddied dialogues. The people looking for answers want fish not snake. I think Semper is right on this. However the prophets and seers, the confused and the eccentric should be left to explore their dreams and their witness just as those stuck to doctrine or those defining their faith by their calling. All should be permitted a place at the Lord's tables.

So maybe a forum needs specific directives and additional heading regards differing fellowship. I know that some forums disallow personal revelation for example.

B, White's statement that a lot of man-centered problems require a Holy Ghost solution is something everyone should pay attention to, but alot of posts on the forum are not from a perspective of a solution looking for a problem it is just about sharing our lives in Christ and those lives are accompanied by many doctrines, different personalities and differing histories.. Maybe. In my case maybe I make the mistake of familiarity with individual forum contributors at the expense of those who would rather come to the forums more guarded. If someone is looking for a place of anchor for their faith in the Church, my testimony and waxing on love as if it was first nature to me is not an answer. And I could and would pass as a know it all of no use to the problems of the real world.

 

[gemcgrew]

Most of us haven't reached a state of spiritual perfection. We still struggle with life and the problems it presents to include the pains and sorrows, the constant battle with our pride and our selfish desires, the instinctual desire to strike back when we are struck or insulted. We still have to put forth a lot of effort to maintain our spiritual walk with God and not fall into the snares Satan lays out. This stuff is for us, the lesser ones.

Sounds complex and to be a lot of hard work. May you find rest someday.

 

[The Original Rooster]

Most of us haven't reached a state of spiritual perfection. We still struggle with life and the problems it presents to include the pains and sorrows, the constant battle with our pride and our selfish desires, the instinctual desire to strike back when we are struck or insulted. We still have to put forth a lot of effort to maintain our spiritual walk with God and not fall into the snares Satan lays out. This stuff is for us, the lesser ones.

Yep, that's me you're describing right there.

 

[oldfella1962]

@gordon 2. You asked this question in the other thread, and it precisely nailed some thoughts that had been running around in my head for a few days. It also underlies a point of much contention and angst here in the spiritual forum from believers and non-believers alike. I'd like to address it as you worded it very succintly.


Here's my stand on the matter. The Gospel itself is a concept that is so simple a child can understand it. That is not an accident, it's by design. It isn't and never was for only those with a PhD in theology to "get".

Christianity, literally "Christ-like," is just as simple to understand. How can't it be. The example he set for us to live by is easily comprehendible through a reading of just the 4 Gospels. Acts and Romans go on to further reinforce them. None of that is incomprehensible nor even difficult to comprehend. It's simple.

You assert "It is very complex..." What everyone witnesses here, and what is a thorn to many on the outside looking in on these discussions is they know the Gospels and even the Bible, even the unbelievers. They know the themes, the contexts, and they know what "Christ-like" is supposed to look like and they know it's not complicated, complex or incomprehensible. Then they look at the discussions here and they are incomprehensible. What's more they are purposefully incomprehensible. If it is not purposeful then how does one explain how a poster can comprehend a simple post and then respond in an incomprehensible manner. Clearly the poster can comprehend simple thoughts. Is it reasonable to expect that the same poster is incapable of conveying simple thoughts? So I ask, to what end? Why would someone take a simple, life giving message and make it incomprehensible?

Even if one grants the notion that Christianity IS complex, which I obviously don't, but if you believe it indeed edifies, conveys hope, and carries the message of life, why make it even more complex instead of simple? What purpose is served by making it more inaccessible, more incomprehensible, more difficult to attain? Do people who understand the basic Gospel and what Christ-like is supposed to look like, whether they believe it or not, whether they buy into it or not, at least see it exemplified in these discussions, or do they see just another example of frauds?

Listen, I get that with "Christianity" in a theology context, you can follow that down the rabbit hole as deep as you want to go and I won't say you shouldn't. I will just say maybe ask yourself if you need an audience to do so, and consider having those discussions through private messages. If you need an audience to discuss deep theological theory, then it ain't about the discussion but about how you want to be perceived by the audience.

I'll say this from my personal experience. I've spent a lot of time and effort going down theological rabbit holes: prophecy, apologetics, church history to a minor extent. There was no life for me in any of it. I may have well been studying chemistry.
The only life I've found is in the simplicity of the Gospel. Every other 'study' is playing spiritual whack-a-mole, hoping to hit The Spiritual Life. The Gospel IS the spiritual life. It's the simplest concept of any of it, yet living it is all consuming and all rewarding. That's where the life is and I submit that's what we should be sharing, because that's what people not only need, but are truly looking for. They just are burnt out on the fraudulent stuff masking itself as 'christianity'. They ain't stupid. They know they will know the real thing when it shows itself. They just ain't seeing it.

It could be that people these days aren't "seeing the real thing" because from their viewpoint it has not shown itself. People are naturally skeptical (and rightly so) and try to be rational and realistic about most aspects of their life in this complicated world, so that thinking might bleed over into spiritual concerns. In other words why should Christianity/The Gospel get a pass at not having to "add up" if the rest of their world has to make sense?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

It could be that people these days aren't "seeing the real thing" because from their viewpoint it has not shown itself. People are naturally skeptical (and rightly so) and try to be rational and realistic about most aspects of their life in this complicated world, so that thinking might bleed over into spiritual concerns. In other words why should Christianity/The Gospel get a pass at not having to "add up" if the rest of their world has to make sense?

I realize you are an atheist/agnostic. Out of respect I ask you not attempt to derail this thread through insinuating Christianity/The Gospel "gets a pass" in not having to add up. That's a patently false narrative and it's insulting to any Christian who believes. We are just like anyone else. We believe in Christianity and the Gospel because it does add up. We don't check our brains, senses, and reason at the door when it comes to our faith. The discussion ongoing in this thread is essentially, "Is Christianity and the Gospel simple or complex and how best to share and discuss it with others in a way beneficial to all concerned?". Please be respectful enough to confine your comments to that topic. There is another forum created specifically for you to share the type of opinions you stated above and you are free to do so as you wish.

 

[oldfella1962]

I realize you are an atheist/agnostic. Out of respect I ask you not attempt to derail this thread through insinuating Christianity/The Gospel "gets a pass" in not having to add up. That's a patently false narrative and it's insulting to any Christian who believes. We are just like anyone else. We believe in Christianity and the Gospel because it does add up. We don't check our brains, senses, and reason at the door when it comes to our faith. The discussion ongoing in this thread is essentially, "Is Christianity and the Gospel simple or complex and how best to share and discuss it with others in a way beneficial to all concerned?". Please be respectful enough to confine your comments to that topic. There is another forum created specifically for you to share the type of opinions you stated above and you are free to do so as you wish.

Sorry I thought this thread was in the AA&A forum! It's this new layout that threw me. I saw this thread in the "similar threads" at the bottom of the thread I was in, and assumed this thread was in the same forum! I'll be more careful next time. That's why I HATE when boards go to a new format/display style/layout. I'm always the last guy to catch on.

 

[Madman]

No that is the definition of faith

religion​

noun​

re·li·gion ri-ˈli-jən

1 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
2 a (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
b: the state of a religious
(a nun in her 20th year of religion)
3 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

My point is religion is what provides the proper "vehicle" for all of that to happen.

I am trying to figure out what makes religion man made.

 

[Madman]

I think maybe you're missing the context Brother. He's not inferring that we shouldn't carry the message, but that we shouldn't muddy the message.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood. I thought he was saying that religion is man made. I just dont understand where the belief that religion is man made comes from. It is the vehicle that gives proper context to how teachers should be trained and sent into the world.

 

[Madman]

Sorry I thought this thread was in the AA&A forum! It's this new layout that threw me. I saw this thread in the "similar threads" at the bottom of the thread I was in, and assumed this thread was in the same forum! I'll be more careful next time. That's why I HATE when boards go to a new format/display style/layout. I'm always the last guy to catch on.

Nope. I still have not caught on. Looks like I might be last.

 

[gma1320]

faith
/fāTH/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: faith
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
a system of religious belief.
plural noun: faiths
"the Christian faith"
a strongly held belief or theory.
"the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe"
To be saved you must believe in Jesus Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection. Faith is the belief of the unseen at its simplest form.
Man made a mess out of religion and made it so far out of wack it was not pleasing to God. This one done by the many laws and rules that were established and grew through the generations from the beginning. As an example, we will use the law of not eating pork. It went from one shouldn't eat pork, to then being you can not on a pig. From there man progressed to the rule of you can't even associate with someone who owns a pig. Man made such a mess out of God's plan and promises that He sent His one and only Son to die and be resurrected for our sins. If you recall Jesus even went to the temple and flipped some tables because because of the mockery man had made out of His Father's house of prayer. Unfortunately man and the church has still held fast to many religious laws and beliefs that aren't necessary for relationship with God the Father, Jesus the Son, and His Holy Spirit which He left to empower us to do His works, though those religious practices and beliefs look different than they did back then. Much of this is caused by the controlling spirit of religion that the enemy has sent to kill, steal, and destroy. Which in turn has also led to the watered down gospel that so many churches want to teach these days as well. Hope this helps clear up any confusion @Madman Also I'd like to invite you to attend a Holy Spirit Encounter conference. I believe you might could benefit from it. If you are interested you can get more information at Holyspiritencounter.org as can anyone else who might be interested.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Sorry I thought this thread was in the AA&A forum! It's this new layout that threw me. I saw this thread in the "similar threads" at the bottom of the thread I was in, and assumed this thread was in the same forum! I'll be more careful next time. That's why I HATE when boards go to a new format/display style/layout. I'm always the last guy to catch on.

We’re all human Brother and we all make mistakes. I didn’t realize the threads that pop up can be in other forums either. Glad you made the mistake for me. Maybe I can remember it well enough to learn from it. Have a blessed day.

 

[Spotlite]

Sorry I thought this thread was in the AA&A forum! It's this new layout that threw me. I saw this thread in the "similar threads" at the bottom of the thread I was in, and assumed this thread was in the same forum! I'll be more careful next time. That's why I HATE when boards go to a new format/display style/layout. I'm always the last guy to catch on.

Nope. I still have not caught on. Looks like I might be last.

It can trip you up in “similar threads” but in small print under the thread title it’ll show that threads location.

 

[oldfella1962]

It can trip you up in “similar threads” but in small print under the thread title it’ll show that threads location.

Yes I figured that out - small print is The Devil! Bet we are all in agreement on that! Again, sorry to offend anybody if I crashed the party.
Lesson learned with those "similar threads".

 

[Madman]

faith
/fāTH/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: faith
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
a system of religious belief.
plural noun: faiths
"the Christian faith"
a strongly held belief or theory.
"the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe"
To be saved you must believe in Jesus Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection. Faith is the belief of the unseen at its simplest form.
Man made a mess out of religion and made it so far out of wack it was not pleasing to God. This one done by the many laws and rules that were established and grew through the generations from the beginning. As an example, we will use the law of not eating pork. It went from one shouldn't eat pork, to then being you can not on a pig. From there man progressed to the rule of you can't even associate with someone who owns a pig. Man made such a mess out of God's plan and promises that He sent His one and only Son to die and be resurrected for our sins. If you recall Jesus even went to the temple and flipped some tables because because of the mockery man had made out of His Father's house of prayer. Unfortunately man and the church has still held fast to many religious laws and beliefs that aren't necessary for relationship with God the Father, Jesus the Son, and His Holy Spirit which He left to empower us to do His works, though those religious practices and beliefs look different than they did back then. Much of this is caused by the controlling spirit of religion that the enemy has sent to kill, steal, and destroy. Which in turn has also led to the watered down gospel that so many churches want to teach these days as well. Hope this helps clear up any confusion @Madman Also I'd like to invite you to attend a Holy Spirit Encounter conference. I believe you might could benefit from it. If you are interested you can get more information at Holyspiritencounter.org as can anyone else who might be interested.

Lots of assertions and accusations here, with no evidence.

Not sure why you think I would benefit from the Holy Spirit Conference. Emotionalism is not my cup of tea, but thanks anyway.

The Church, which I assume you are part of, has the purpose of always directing man toward God the Father just as Jesus did. The Holy Spirit gives us strength, and hopefully the wisdom to continue in that relationship.

Religion, as you call it, is simply the way the Christian practices their faith. i.e. you may go to worship on Sunday morning and then to service on Sunday evening, and then to some form of service on Wednesday evening, while I go to Mass on Sunday morning, and then to Mass 3 or 4 times during the week, plus Bible study and at least another lesson led by a priest or bishop.

While you see religion, which you practice by the way, and it appears a very man made version of it, as detrimental, it has directed the Christian toward God for more 2000 years. For instance today is Epiphany, it is the Celebration of the coming of the magi to proclaim Jesus as Emmanuel. We will go to Mass and hear readings from Holy Scripture on that topic, old and New Testament, there will also be a homily on Epiphany. Everything you call religion, at least for me, is God oriented not self help oriented, the Christian life is one of service, not of selfishness.

To the OP. Christianity is very simple to discuss, but most difficult to live, because we are changing and being changed. This is difficult and sometimes painful for us humans. Theosis is not easy due to the fall, our flesh struggles against it, and it is a process we must allow God to do for us.

 

[gordon 2]

Nevertheless, I take Semper at his word. He is called to minister regards the Church and that is not a minor calling. His strait forward witness might be what the Doctor ordered for all the questions and issues many people have with church and the Church. The spirit in all this seems well fitted to him I think. The replies to posters have been genuine, plain spoken and pertinent in my opinion. I personally don't disregard a person who says they are called to serve the Lord... especially when new things happen that are wholesome. When I think of it few are called to serve all the Christian pie but more are called to serve a piece of it like it was their first nature. Maybe I forget this in the past.

So Semper's piece of the pie is simple for him and maybe that is the reason he was called to it. Praise the Lord. Perhaps someone else's piece is not simple for him. But is that not the way it is for almost everyone?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Nevertheless, I take Semper at his word. He is called to minister regards the Church and that is not a minor calling. His strait forward witness might be what the Doctor ordered for all the questions and issues many people have with church and the Church. The spirit in all this seems well fitted to him I think. The replies to posters have been genuine, plain spoken and pertinent in my opinion. I personally don't disregard a person who says they are called to serve the Lord... especially when new things happen that are wholesome. When I think of it few are called to serve all the Christian pie but more are called to serve a piece of it like it was their first nature. Maybe I forget this in the past.

So Semper's piece of the pie is simple for him and maybe that is the reason he was called to it. Praise the Lord. Perhaps someone else's piece is not simple for him. But is that not the way it is for almost everyone?

Let me be clear. I don’t think I’m called to serve any more than anyone else. I try to do my best to live in his will but not to preach to anyone. I want that understood. I’m not a preacher or even a very good disciple. It takes all I can do to just be a sheep. God forbid anyone mistaking me for a shepherd.