For consider well him who endured so great contradiction

Israel

BANNED
from sinners against himself, that ye be not weary, fainting in your minds.

Resistance is a property of being. As is expression.

And before it sounds confounding or a vain attempt by a fool to engage on some sort of quasi metaphysical or philosophical terrain, the simplicity of the expression; "Something's gotta give" isn't unfamiliar nor esoteric. The being of any things (plural) that meet (share being) in the creation have undeniable effects upon one another (and how many others!).

Is it deniable that an ant (or tiny stone), if propelled into deep space (so that we might have it as a point of clarity distinct from the Earth) would, even as it is effected by far more massive things...no less exert to those things effect; and even the Earth, now bereft of the mass of one ants/stones "being/mass" is also itself in different subjection and effect to all else in the universe?

The reality of things in the creation and there mutually intertwined effects are an expression of their being yet their resistance to changing in those relations, that inertia of which we learned, is no less a property of their being. "Somethings gotta give" now becomes more easily understood as "all things gotta give"...(at least in some amount)..

Our own perspective (that place we stand to see/observe) also has undeniable effect. A man might see and say: "The pull of Jupiter's gravity is causing that ant to travel some arc specifically that coincide with x/y coordinate on Jupiter's surface."

But this (if it is true) is only so because of our own self same effects here that have some effect upon that distant trajectory. My being, your being, all being in the creation plainly have effect upon all other. Whether it be by force of gravity, heat, or property of light (and God knows how many other properties may be), all have force of expression. And in fact, that ant, on that trajectory...is also immutably effecting our own. (trajectories)

And in all of this we have concluded there are things negligible, and things considerable. But here "amount" of effect is less important than the truth that all is in effectual relationship, regardless of measurements to size of effect. (Which again...is always inextricably related to our own perspective.)
An asteroid about to hit Pluto may mean nothing to us in Georgia, but if we somehow had traversed that distance in some craft, and found ourselves in its path it could hold all significance to us.

"Houston we have a problem". (And now cares coming from an untold distance...are also translated in effects...upon those in Houston, hearing) Stuff is joined. (And even "cares" move across time and space with effect.)

Distance then, buckles here. But, so does time. Collisions (for example) of whatever magnitude and whatever "time ago" are still having effect. Will, and must...until...

And the seeming truth of considering the sun's "burning out" in some distant "future" no less has a translation (from there, even if it be in mind) into this present moment. I think "being" in the creation has an unutterably deep conviction and then effect upon our consciousness of entropy...and that by such conviction itself has a very disabling effect in any and all "present moments".

But, I could be entirely wrong in all my thinking, even if I believe I see how the truth then of "all of creation groaneth in travail..." must be brought to consciousness. All is made subject (in this creation) to vanity...that knowing ultimately nothing of it is not subject to that entropy (a sort of burning out)...that makes any self action only done in reaction...to frustration.

To me it appears being then has a full set of "intuitions" that are neither time, distance...nor even experience based. Our presumptions so often may then trip us up in this regard, no? Thinking a thing is less "effective" if in the past...or cannot be made quite "real" to us in the future (but ask the man with an empty wallet whose mortgage is due in 12 days...if consideration of perceived effects seem to cross time...)

Experience may support these intuitions, but experience is not necessary to it or them.

Now once this may seem settled to us..."I act/have effects (by my being) in ways unaccountable in total, and am acted upon in ways unaccountable in total (across time, space, etc...whose effects then act upon my acting (like a boomeranging reaction)...this knowledge now undercuts any sure knowledge itself...for I am "in the mix".

Being very much swirled about...yet thinking I can have some form of stasis, a sure vantage point, a secure and pure perspective from which I observe. But I am hitting into and being hit by, at every turn...past events, future cares...past and present cares of others...all buffeting. And to then include any sure knowledge of the material universe (this creation) also becomes void.

(I stand next to the pool to see what the water temp is, the temp of the thermometer I insert "to know", my proximity and own body heat...all undercut any sure knowledge of the thing I set out knowing I want to know.) So at best we can only live (in this creation) practically...but true knowledge of it can never be found in it, nor from it.

Now...if somehow something or someone were to make us be able to be "out of the way" so to speak...or more precisely if this is not done...we "know"...nothing.

Descartes "I think, therefore I am"...might it not be better to understand "I think I think, therefore I think I am"?

But I ain't no philosopher, just a guy sitting here in his underwear. I think.
 
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hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
How does it effect me?
Why should I care?
Can't I just sit on the sidelines?
Why do you care?
Man, are we ignorant,
even, or especially, of the Omniscient.


Jupiter and the ant, and the earth, and all on the earth; good illustration.
 
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Israel

BANNED
"Resistance is a property of being. As is expression."

How passive is a man in all his activity?


That's a great question.

My "own" wanting to know anything seems to conclusively lead me to all of not knowing.
And when I say my own it seems clear to me if no other...I sense desire "to know..." even if all appears a fools ramblings.

At least it appears desire as I understand it. But that also has fatal flaw, for I know limits (or believe I do) to my desire. (In a figure I have wanted to scale Everest...but know I have quit after first base camp.) I can apply this to many things in my experience...but really, I needn't by experience...it is intuited...I can have desire over which I have no control to its placing...that leaves me all abandoned to absolute limit.

So, even what I think I know of desire...and its propelling or power...has (at least to me...) all of limit. There is then (at least to and for me) a desire that has bound to it a frustration...for to will to its fulfillment I find frustrate-able. But this also has a working if acknowledged. I am subject. Absolute in subject.

Now, if I take this over to what others have said (if I even begin to understand them, at all) and written...there's an undeniable sense to it. "God knows"...both "those who are His"...and "those that love Him". Man's knowing of his own estate appears more than negligible here, for he could only know anything...if allowed by the Knower.

Whether it be first that this is only accomplished by acknowledging...or whether regardless of acknowledgement (by intervention) it is made known...is also "out of my hands".

What a rest there is.
 

Israel

BANNED
How does it doesn't effect me?
Why should I care?
Can't I just sit on the sidelines?
Why do you care?
Man, are we ignorant,
even, or especially, of the Omniscient.


Jupiter and the ant, and the earth, and all on the earth; good illustration.


Yes. "why should I care...?" Which almost sounds brutally insouciant, brutally callous...but it seems I am faced with it...

Is it too much delving...trying to (by my own understandings) put too fine a point on a thing? Is it just...no more than believing I see how little Jesus Christ cared for himself in His own considerations, I make myself (or try to) a "something" for seeing thus? Thus showing that what I think I see (or know) is so far from my practice...

I begin perhaps to appreciate salvation...(once so casually assumed to have "had"). And even more than this...dare I believe that such is truly impart-able...translate-able to a man?

When Paul says he could wish himself accursed from Christ for the sake of his brethren (having in essence then "no care" for his own salvation...if I understand and have any perception or logic) is he talking mere hyperbole...through his hat?

But I don't see him "that way". I don't think he thinks or writes or spoke...casually.

Then I am found considering...a man I perceive as having such depth, not only to the glory of salvation, but also the terrors of being "cut off"...could, and would be brought to such a place where he would forfeit all (to gain he11, so to speak) in preference that he would even "wish it" (and I believe he knew he spoke and wrote...before God) for himself...so that his brothers might be saved.

If I seem boggled...it is only in consideration that such love, such affection was made his in Christ...and I marvel.

And I appreciate (and am coming more so I believe) those who are not ashamed to visit and even perhaps...sit in such dust with me as to how this incomprehensible matter is made true.

PS: In further consideration of another question you ask

"Can't I just sit on the sidelines?"

It's like Paul is asking to be placed "under the field" buried, gone to it...all, and willing to be so. And put in a place no man "in his right mind" would want to. Yet...I see Paul...sober.
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
My "own" wanting to know anything seems to conclusively lead me to all of not knowing.
And when I say my own it seems clear to me if no other...I sense desire "to know..." even if all appears a fools ramblings.
We can no more establish our own knowing as we can establish our own righteousness.

Paul was shown something about decrease/increase that I believe pertains to knowledge as well.

But I can only know this if I am known. If I am not known, I am deceived.
 
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