I love chicken and homosexuals

[Artfuldodger]

I could go on and on and quote many many verses that say sinners will go to He11 or die and the righteous will go to Heaven or everlasting life and never see anything about repentance in those particular verses.
True I an also find many many verses about repenting. Again I can find many many verses about God grace and all of our sins being washed and forgiven.

Colossians 3:5-10 – Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth; fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness; which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 - For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Revelation 21:8 – But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Deceit/lying – Many have fallen bait to the sin of lying. The Bible says that liars will be thrown into the lake of fire. Lies come in many forms. Lies to protect one’s innocence is quite commonplace. Flattery is a form of lying. I have seen preachers flatter newcomers in the church to entice them to come back. Lying to your children by telling them that Santa Claus brings presents at Christmas time is a lie. It is quite a discouragement when a child finds out that there is no Santa Claus. Santa Claus has become the Christmas idol, yet he doesn’t exist. If you tell your child the lies regarding Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, and the tooth fairy and also teach them the truth about Jesus Christ, what is going to happen when they realize that what they were told about Santa, the Easter bunny, and the tooth fairy were all lies? They may end up believing that Jesus is a lie because it also takes faith to believe in Him. A person who is constantly exaggerating is lying. Lying is a sin that will keep a person out of Heaven. Whether you’re lying on your income taxes or getting your 12-year-old son a discount for those that are “11 and below” by telling them that your son is 11 it is lying.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Repentance (Lordship and Non-lordship Definitions)

Hodges even claims that “the standard Greek-English dictionary does not list any New Testament passage where the meaning ‘to change one’s mind’ actually occurs.”[3] He is content to allow metanoia to be interpreted as a turning from sin, only repentance has no bearing on salvation, rather only on “fellowship with [God].

Lordship advocates work to gather all the biblical data on repentance and define it as “a turning to God from sin that involves a change of heart and purpose inevitably resulting in a change of behavior.”[5] MacArthur agrees that repentance is not “merely shame or sorrow for sin, although genuine repentance always involves an element of remorse” (Rom. 2:3-4).[6] This sorrowful repentance is not merely a human work, “it is, like every element of redemption, a sovereignly bestowed gift of God.”

http://electexiles.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/repentance-lordship-and-non-lordship-definitions/

 

[HandgunHTR]

Art, I wish you were a bit closer to Atlanta. I would love to buy you lunch and talk about Justification and Sanctification. I think the answers you are seeking lay somewhere in the understanding of those two things.

It is a very difficult topic to cover on an internet forum because it is one of those discussions that "evolves" and common discovery is dang near impossible.

P.S. the invitation is open to anyone who wishes to take me up on it. I promise that I am not a preacher, bible thumper, or one of those "pushy" Christians who will try to push my beliefs down your throat. I listen very well and have been told that I do a good job of explaining difficult biblical concepts (but they may have just been being nice to me). Finally, I will always pick up the tab.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Art, I wish you were a bit closer to Atlanta. I would love to buy you lunch and talk about Justification and Sanctification. I think the answers you are seeking lay somewhere in the understanding of those two things.

It is a very difficult topic to cover on an internet forum because it is one of those discussions that "evolves" and common discovery is dang near impossible.

P.S. the invitation is open to anyone who wishes to take me up on it. I promise that I am not a preacher, bible thumper, or one of those "pushy" Christians who will try to push my beliefs down your throat. I listen very well and have been told that I do a good job of explaining difficult biblical concepts (but they may have just been being nice to me). Finally, I will always pick up the tab.

It is a difficult subject and although this forum might not be the best media, many might benefit from your insight. I would love to have lunch with you to discuss grace, repentance, & works but not "convert to my Church denomination" type stuff.
I'm open to any and all concepts. The reason I would rather discuss things on the forum is because in the past when people want private meetings they always turn out to be fringe members of something like Messianic Jews or some other belief. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Now getting back to Justification and Sanctification, do you see repentance as a part of that and how much is the Holy Spirit involved?

You ever notice the English language never has a word to describe many Greek words used in the Bible, yet we still randomly pick one to use anyway?

Misunderstandings About Repentance
The tragedy of it is that we have no one English word that reproduces exactly the meaning and atmosphere of the Greek word. The Greek has a word meaning to be sorry (metamelomai) which is exactly our English word repent and it is used of Judas in Mt 27:3"

If God speaks of Himself as repenting, from blessing and judgment, then maybe our religious ideas of what it means to repent are wrong.

http://www.acts17-11.com/repent_xtra.html

 

[Artfuldodger]

Art, I wish you were a bit closer to Atlanta. I would love to buy you lunch and talk about Justification and Sanctification. I think the answers you are seeking lay somewhere in the understanding of those two things.

It is a very difficult topic to cover on an internet forum because it is one of those discussions that "evolves" and common discovery is dang near impossible.

P.S. the invitation is open to anyone who wishes to take me up on it. I promise that I am not a preacher, bible thumper, or one of those "pushy" Christians who will try to push my beliefs down your throat. I listen very well and have been told that I do a good job of explaining difficult biblical concepts (but they may have just been being nice to me). Finally, I will always pick up the tab.

I might have jumped the gun on your invitation. Judging from your sig line verse, I don't think you are trying to lead one to a certain denomination, just the truth. I apologize for suggesting your motive in a meeting.

Part of your Sig line:
3For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Now the "washing of regeneration, and renewing" I'm truly interested in.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The basis of deeds, bearing fruit, righteousness, works, doing good, not sinning. Things or actions we must do to see the Kingdom of God, correct?

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Saved by God's mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

I've already picked up on two key words, "mercy" as in "God's mercy" and "by" as in "by the Holy Spirit." Please tell me what else there is.
It's either from "them" or "by" me. It's starting to get really easy unless I'm reading this incorrectly.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/repentance.html#ixzz2qiroSPp0

 

[Artfuldodger]

Matthew 23:27
"How horrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed graves that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead people's bones and every kind of impurity.

metanoia: change of mind, repentance

change in the inner man.

 

[Israel]

Yesterday, when I was away from home overnight, and the temps were going to drop again (though not so severely), I thought about the water pipes. I thought how the water freezes in exposed pipes. I thought about buried pipes...how the ground keeps them warm.
I thought about depth needed. I thought about how, when I lived up north a footing had to be poured below the frost line. I thought about what that meant. I thought about foundations that would heave and disturb the house were they not laid deep enough. I thought about how my own house gets disturbed at times, how cracks show, how floors buckle, how I "trip" and stumble within myself, to be shown outwardly, in word and deed, when frost penetrates deeper than I was prepared for.

I thought about "because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold" and how, if we let, or discover in these times of abounding "iniquity"...where everything seems out of plumb and square, and my own only recourse is to try to show "my own house" square by rushing about to square up walls, repair floors, patch over cracks...all quick fixes; without ever stopping...stopping...stopping
to consider the depth of the foundation I have built upon...I will still live in a drafty house...and be an example to others of only poor workmanship. I might even unknowingly encourage others to poor craftsmanship. And in that...even...foolishly find a comfort when they are shivering in a drafty house..."well, I am not as bad off as they, I must be doing at least "pretty good". When the truth may well be all of my poor building was precisely initiated to look better, appear warmer, show off...as its sole impetus.

No one sees the depth of another's foundation till it is revealed. Is it any wonder Paul was concerned with foundation? Is it any wonder, that when hearing of faults and sin troubling a congregation Paul didn't thunder on high...but said "
2Co_12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Is it not Paul in saying..."humble me among you"...what did I miss in the impartation of what I know to be true? Where did I fail as a builder...and leave you to such drafty consequences? What will be gone through, burnt up, trashed, discarded as useless in "humble me among you"...and when I see what bit of "self" I had overlooked and allowed mixed in the foundation so that this building is now so out of kilter, askew, unfit as a worthy temple...well, what I (may see)...is that although Paul was willing to attribute their failures to his own workmanship...and enter into that humbling...there will be a great wailing...and the tearing down that he endured within himself...they would also have to experience.
Paul knew the Christ never produces sin.
And so, if he saw sin in what he was responsible for...even if he might, in the discerning be led to casually...perhaps even eagerly...want to embrace the notion...well I see it is "out there"...but not in me...he didn't. Like his Lord, he knew the remedy was not simply in pointing it out...but being the remedy, in his own self.
Is it any wonder he discovered he "endured these things for the elect's sake"? Is it any wonder he said he made up "in his own flesh what remained of the sufferings of Christ on behalf of his body, the church"?

God judges what is outside the Church.
If we would, perhaps, if we could, be made into what is willing to be torn down and leveled amongst one another, iniquity abandoned when seen as inequity perpetuated "stand not so close to me for I am holier than thou"...a building might indeed be manifest in which so many cold souls seeking warmth by any rubbing against one another...even in the most lascivious ways, might look to a city set on a hill and say..."ahh, a warm place in the sun...it is what I have always desired, I must turn aside and behold this great sight".
And in the turning...and seeking...and seeing...be reborn.

 

[panfried0419]

There's not a Christian on this board who thinks he lives a sinless life.

Are kidding me?

 

[centerpin fan]

Are kidding me?

Nope.

If you disagree, quote a member saying he lives a sinless life (or any words to that effect.)

 

[Artfuldodger]

Do Christians Sin (1 John 1:8 vs. 1 John 3:9)?
Sinless Perfection

The issue of sinless perfection causes somewhat of a rift between evangelicals. Conservative fundamentalists argue that Christians are positionally sanctified since we're indwelt with the Holy Spirit at salvation, but we won't be experientially sanctified (made perfect) until we get to heaven. On the other hand, many charismatics believe that Christians can receive a "second blessing" whereby they receive the "filling" of the Spirit at some point following salvation at which they reach sinless perfection. (Conservatives also believe in repeated filling of the Spirit, but only as it applies to restoring temporal fellowship with God by confession of sin, as explained in 1 John 1:9.)

However, there is a concrete (yet subtle) answer to this question in the scriptures. Interestingly enough, this answer first appears in a form which seems to indicate that the scriptures are contradicting themselves.

1 John 1:8

1 John 1:8 says, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

1 John 3:9

However, 1 John 3:9 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

At first glance, this appears to present a glaring contradiction. Do Christians sin, or not? In one verse, John tells his Christian audience that we all sin. Then, in the very same letter, he says that if we're really Christians, we can't continue to sin.

Inadequate Explanations

I've heard many inadequate explanations for this passage. The best of these weak arguments says that the key to the interpretation is the tense of the verb used in 1 John 3:9. It says we can't "continue" to sin. In other words, this argument continues, when we sin and confess it, we won't be repeating that same sin again regularly. However, this proves of little comfort to many Christians who find they're confessing some of the same sins almost every day. In fact, this argument seems to serve only to make some true believers question their salvation.

http://www.christiandataresources.com/christianssin.htm

 

[hummerpoo]

In reference to #317, #318, #319, and #321.

There are no right answers to wrong questions.
You seem to have recognized that.

The basis of deeds, bearing fruit, righteousness, works, doing good, not sinning. Things or actions we must do to see the Kingdom of God, correct?

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Saved by God's mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

I've already picked up on two key words, "mercy" as in "God's mercy" and "by" as in "by the Holy Spirit." Please tell me what else there is.It's either from "them" or "by" me. It's starting to get really easy unless I'm reading this incorrectly.

You identified the impetus ………….……mercy
and the implement ………………..………Holy Spirit
but skipped right over the intent…….…regeneration

 

[centerpin fan]

Are kidding me?

Do you still go to 12 Stone?

 

[Israel]

Evidently the scribes and pharisees had enough theatrical training to deceive the simple. But not Jesus.
Folks may not have particularly liked the scribes and pharisees, but maybe they couldn't quite put their finger on their odiousness. They may have even thought "those folks are holy, they know the scriptures and keep the law, as far as I can see...but...to tell you the truth, I wouldn't much care to be like them. Dour. Sour. I like the company of drunks and harlots a bit more...I guess I am going to judgment...but oh well, I just don't have whatever it takes to be like them...I just like "fun" too much...and can't quite get away from the notion that life should have some joy in it"

I have had this pendulum swing in myself.
Oh, to see Jesus!
Seriously knowing...life is truly...for joy!
With a face set like flint for Jerusalem...to behold the joy set before him!

 

[hummerpoo]

Do Christians Sin (1 John 1:8 vs. 1 John 3:9)?
Sinless Perfection

The issue of sinless perfection causes somewhat of a rift between evangelicals. Conservative fundamentalists argue that Christians are positionally sanctified since we're indwelt with the Holy Spirit at salvation, but we won't be experientially sanctified (made perfect) until we get to heaven. On the other hand, many charismatics believe that Christians can receive a "second blessing" whereby they receive the "filling" of the Spirit at some point following salvation at which they reach sinless perfection. (Conservatives also believe in repeated filling of the Spirit, but only as it applies to restoring temporal fellowship with God by confession of sin, as explained in 1 John 1:9.)

However, there is a concrete (yet subtle) answer to this question in the scriptures. Interestingly enough, this answer first appears in a form which seems to indicate that the scriptures are contradicting themselves.

1 John 1:8

1 John 1:8 says, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

1 John 3:9

However, 1 John 3:9 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

At first glance, this appears to present a glaring contradiction. Do Christians sin, or not? In one verse, John tells his Christian audience that we all sin. Then, in the very same letter, he says that if we're really Christians, we can't continue to sin.

Inadequate Explanations

I've heard many inadequate explanations for this passage. The best of these weak arguments says that the key to the interpretation is the tense of the verb used in 1 John 3:9. It says we can't "continue" to sin. In other words, this argument continues, when we sin and confess it, we won't be repeating that same sin again regularly. However, this proves of little comfort to many Christians who find they're confessing some of the same sins almost every day. In fact, this argument seems to serve only to make some true believers question their salvation.

http://www.christiandataresources.com/christianssin.htm

If Israel doesn't object to my picking up on his analogy; you poured a perfectly good foundation, the following morning, you have arrived with 4 semi's and a crane prepared to set a two story prefab house on your new foundation which is at 10% of its intended strength. Give it time to set (7 days = 50%; 28 days= 90%). That's concrete, the spiritual strength curve is much flatter.

 

[Artfuldodger]

In reference to #317, #318, #319, and #321.

There are no right answers to wrong questions.
You seem to have recognized that.






You identified the impetus ………….……mercy
and the implement ………………..………Holy Spirit
but skipped right over the intent…….…regeneration

I didn't consider them wrong questions and do want answers to them. Let's start with the verses that say Christians don't sin.

I never skipped over regeneration it was a part of post # 325, 326, 327, & 328.

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Repentance, regeneration, and sanctification are very important and overlap and are gifts from God.

 

[hummerpoo]

I didn't consider them wrong questions and do want answers to them. Let's start with the verses that say Christians don't sin.

I never skipped over regeneration it was a part of post # 325, 326, 327, & 328.

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Repentance, regeneration, and sanctification are very important and overlap and are gifts from God.

I see your eyes are closed, and I'm tired of stating the obvious over and over. Art I didn't write the book, if you don't like what's in it, take it up with the author.

ditto

 

[Artfuldodger]

So instead of helping me by opening my eyes, it's better to just quit trying?
I just asked some basic questions and the answer was, the questions have no answers. I'll ask on a different thread where I will receive an answer.
The only question I really need an answer is about the verses that say a Christian can't sin. I'll wait for RJ. He usually helps.
My eyes have been open to the correct Biblical truth for about 10 years now. Before that they were closed. I'm always willing to see the other side of one's beliefs.

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 5:29-30
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into he11. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into he11.

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the he11 of fire.

Matthew 5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Art,

I will take a stab at it, but be aware I am not quite as eloquent in written word as I am in spoken.

I am a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, BTW, not that that matters that much to the discussion, but it may help you understand what I believe.

First, we are saved through Grace alone. Christ died on the cross after living a perfect life and therefore paid for the sins of all. I did nothing to influence that and nothing I can do can "make up for that". The key word there is "grace". It means that it was undeserved. God sent his Son, who was both Man and God to earth to pay for the sins of the world. He did so because He loves us and wants us to receive the gift of Heaven. That is the 2-penny explaination of Justification. We are now Justified (declared righteous) through the actions of Christ. When we stand in front of God to be judged, Christ will stand with us and basically say "That one is mine" and God will judge us accordingly.

Because of the Justification that we receive through the gift of Christ, Christians strive to live Sanctified lives. What that means is that we are so thankful for the gift of Salvation and Justification that we attempt to live sinless lives. However, we are Man, and therefore sinful. We cannot be perfect, no matter how hard we try. However, because we are Justified, we continue to try. When we stumble, we acknowledge our sin, ask for God's forgiveness (which is the 2-penny explanation of repentance) and continue on the journey.

As I stated before, we are saved by Grace alone. Therefore we cannot "work" our way into Heaven. We cannot do what is required, which is perfection. Only Christ can (and did) that. What we can do is strive to do what God would want us to do, which is not squander the gift that we have been given. That is where works come in. The are the natural response to the Justification that we have been granted. As James said in his book, "faith without works is dead." I like to think of works as a "force multiplier". I know I don't need them to get into Heaven, but my faith is strengthened by doing them and other people get the benefit of my work and hopefully it strengthens their faith as well. We then start to "feed" off of one another and if one of us stumbles (which we all do sometime), I can use that strength to keep me going.

Just something to remember. All of this is not as simple as a "once and done" kind of thing. While Christ paid for our sins on the cross (which was a once and done), we still have our sinful nature inside of us and we have the option of rejecting that gift. Some people reject it outright (the unrepentant sinners), some reject it temporarily (people who "fall of the wagon" so to speak), some reject it momentarily, but eventually we all reject it because we are sinners and will always carry around that Sinful Adam in our hearts. When that happens, we need repentance so we can continue to move forward. In essence God "regifts" us.

The apostle Paul referred to life as "the race" on more than one occasion. That is a great analogy. Life is a journey. We will not always be on the right path, but we will all finish. The only difference is the prize that we will receive when we finish the race. Those that work to stay on the path to Heaven will be rewarded. Those that run away from that path will not be.

I hope that helps give you a bit of insight into my beliefs. Again, it is hard to do when typing it out and I don't have a lot of my reference material here, so I apologize for not quoting more Scripture. If you want, you can contact me via e-mail (link in my profile) and I can e-mail you a pretty good Bible Study on Sanctification.

Again, I am not trying to "convert" you or make you believe what I believe. Each person's journey is their own to make and only God can judge the race and give out the prize. My only goal is to give my take on it and hope it helps.