Poll - Should there be a change to Gross Scoring or Stay with Net

[deers2ward]

It is like wanting the AKC to change its standard for a dog because your dog doesn’t really meet the standard. Who cares. You know what a lab looks like because there is a standard. Similarly, you know what a 130, 140, or 170 looks like in your head because there is a standard scoring system. It would make zero sense to change either because they have been established for many, many, years. What would you do, go back and allow all the animals( it’s not just deer) that got netted out in now. Are you going to rerank everything now based on gross and reprint books. No. It is something to talk about on GON, but in reality the whole concept of changing it because you don’t like it is dumb.

Bingo

 

[across the river]

@across the river i think calling it dumb is a bit of an over reach. If we went by your criteria when would we change anything? Times change and things evolve. Do you think the original B&C guys would be ok with shooting a deer at 500yds with an ultramag and scope that you can see the moon with? I mean for years it was just a stick and string??

Your history lesson was informative but calling something dumb because change is asked or questioned seems short sided.

Ok, use irrational then instead of dumb of it makes you feel better. I think the guys that started the B&C club would be excited by the fact that bison, pronghorn, elk, whitetail deer, and other big game animals are in large part thriving across the country. Considering the fact that they thought most all of them were headed toward extinction, I think they would be proud that their efforts paid such huge dividends. I also think they would be pretty amazed at modern firearms and the multitude of calibers, but would be intrigued by the fact the the center fire cartridge itself had changed so little. I also think they would have less of a problem with someone popping one at 500 yards on a hunt today than they would have had with the guys back then riding horses up to slaughtering entire herds of buffalo with there 1873s. Remember this club was started around 1900, twenty plus years after the center fire rifle was already invented and had contributed to over harvest. I don’t think they would have a problem with it. I do think they would find it interesting though, and likely discouraged, by the fact that “sportsman today” with so much game and opportunity to hunt seem to constantly feel the need to gripe and complaining about stuff. The DNR, the B&C scoring system,Seek One, ozonics, the hunting public, the Lakowsky’s, QDMA, long range rifles, trophy hunters, or any number of topics that seem to get people so flustered for whatever reason. I think they would understand that people really have no idea how good they’ve got it. I honestly do. But hey, so much for the rant. Let’s get back to the important stuff like gross verses net scores.

 

[baddave]

I like to measure my bucks. I like gross only. no penalties for hard earned inches. character should not be a penalty. jmho

 

[buckpasser]

I think he B&C club was started 1887 by a bunch of snobs in puffy ****s sitting around a fancy club house sippin cognac and smoking expensive cigars looking down on the common hunters, The rules they came up with were made up so they could pick and choose what bucks could qualify for their fancy book of records, They still refuse to score racks fairly from buck hunters they dont like or agree with , The Rampella and the King buck are good examples.

The King buck situation is bull fo sho!

 

[buckpasser]

The Rompolla buck was a fake or at least never proving to be real and the King buck was a long way from being a world record.

The King buck is obviously being scored wrong though, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[DAVE]

The King buck is obviously being scored wrong though, wouldn’t you agree?

That is a judgement call based on who is scoring.

 

[buckpasser]

That is a judgement call based on who is scoring.

True, but ask 100 people who DON’T have a bias against that deer and story to identify the regular tines and see what they say. I think it’s pretty obvious they’re just trying to stick the owner’s nose in it. I have no dog in the fight, but it makes the B&C folks look petty.

 

[deers2ward]

..

Remember this club was started around 1900, twenty plus years after the center fire rifle was already invented and had contributed to over harvest.
..

1900 you say? What a coincidence...

 

[across the river]

True, but ask 100 people who DON’T have a bias against that deer and story to identify the regular tines and see what they say. I think it’s pretty obvious they’re just trying to stick the owner’s nose in it. I have no dog in the fight, but it makes the B&C folks look petty.

I would argue that anyone who has looked at more than a few racks can easily tell it doesn’t come of the main beam. It is obvious. Do I care one way or another no. In the grand scheme of things does it matter, no. While I do think the B&C club was started with good intent over 100 years ago I really don’t give a rip one way or another at this point, and would agree that some of it is laughable. The biggest “joke” to me about the whole thing is you take this buck or the Milo Hansen buck and listen to the stories and the Hansen buck is a drive buck that was shot at five or six times by Hansen(maybe other guys too) missed multiple times and then finally hit a couple. The king buck got shot at an missed and then shot at and hit and then shot at and hit in the antler which made it break off and then shot by another guy that knocked it down, but still wasn’t dead, so I think was shot again. It is a joke to listen to them. The animals are impressive, don’t get me wrong, but we are recognizing a lot of these deer that were killed in ways that are, to be completely truthful and honest about it, not very “sportsman like” at all. If I killed the world record I wouldn’t enter it, but to each his own.

 

[buckpasser]

I would argue that anyone who has looked at more than a few racks can easily tell it doesn’t come of the main beam. It is obvious. Do I care one way or another no. In the grand scheme of things does it matter, no. While I do think the B&C club was started with good intent over 100 years ago I really don’t give a rip one way or another at this point, and would agree that some of it is laughable. The biggest “joke” to me about the whole thing is you take this buck or the Milo Hansen buck and listen to the stories and the Hansen buck is a drive buck that was shot at five or six times by Hansen(maybe other guys too) missed multiple times and then finally hit a couple. The king buck got shot at an missed and then shot at and hit and then shot at and hit in the antler which made it break off and then shot by another guy that knocked it down, but still wasn’t dead, so I think was shot again. It is a joke to listen to them. The animals are impressive, don’t get me wrong, but we are recognizing a lot of these deer that were killed in ways that are, to be completely truthful and honest about it, not very “sportsman like” at all. If I killed the world record I wouldn’t enter it, but to each his own.

I hear you. The only thing I disagree with in your post is that tine. Sure, it’s webbed into the tine next door a bit, but I’d say it’s 100% coming off the main beam. As a matter of fact, I think they have a “peanut” rule that implies if you were to saw off the tines at the main beam and they were connected, but the shape resembles a peanut, those would each be tines. It it were oval shaped, it would be considered one tine and an abnormal point.

 

[Bigbendgyrene]

Typically one NOT to sit on the fence when it comes to things, but this subject's one I can actually see all sides.

Loving venison, I appreciate the folks who don't care too much over scoring at all (as long as they at least have a bit of appreciation for managing the resource / not shooting more than they can eat / not wiping out the entire population).

As for gross score, I also have an appreciation for mature bucks and how wise many have to be to make it to maturity. With the exception of high-fence operations (which I'm NOT talking about in this comment), gross is generally going to recognize maturity even if a buck's rack grows to be have more abnormal points with age, or is lopsided, etc. It's going to best recognize mass and number of points (regardless of symmetry). It's generally going to be a respect for the age / "beast" factor.

Finally as for net, I think of it kind of like how beauty pageants and / or body builder contests might have scored contestants back in the day before the world went all "woke". There's something about symmetry that just pleases the eye and when you see a buck that has it all... nice mass, big brows, tall outer tines, wide frame, AND perfect symmetry it's a sure thing of beauty.

Not sure if the analogy will work for others, but it's kind of like when I see any of Hank Hammond's knives pop-up on this forum... now, I'm NOT a knife snob. VAST majority of ones I have are for function... would fit the first category of those who don't care about antler scores. Long as the functional knives I've got cut when I need them too, I'm ok with them even if I'm not slobbering over how pretty they are. But, as a Marine, I've got a few heavy duty knives like a K-Bar and even an old heavy WWII Corpsman Bolo knife I blessedly found at a flea market long ago that I love for their size and heft (which kind of fit with the gross score love)... but man, I see the beauty of a Hank Hammond knife and doesn't matter that I've never bought one / haven't dropped top dollar for any knives, I can still appreciate there is something very special in his designs (which, at least in my mind, kind of speaks to what makes net special).

 

[across the river]

I hear you. The only thing I disagree with in your post is that tine. Sure, it’s webbed into the tine next door a bit, but I’d say it’s 100% coming off the main beam. As a matter of fact, I think they have a “peanut” rule that implies if you were to saw off the tines at the main beam and they were connected, but the shape resembles a peanut, those would each be tines. It it were oval shaped, it would be considered one tine and an abnormal point.

For those of you who have no clue what we are talking about, here is a link with a picture of the tine (or tines if you see it like Passer) in question. It is called the king buck.


https://www.wideopenspaces.com/johnny-king-buck/amp/

 

[Bigbendgyrene]

For those of you who have no clue what we are talking about, here is a link with a picture of the tine (or tines if you see it like Passer) in question. It is called the king buck.


https://www.wideopenspaces.com/johnny-king-buck/amp/

That article sure didn't do much in the way of buying sympathy from me for the hunter, Johnny King. Supposedly 8 shots just to kill it, and with 2 fired by the cousin. Sure not a tale of responsible/ethical marksmanship in any way, shape, manner, or form. Don't consider myself a snob, but that makes me one I'm 100% fine with the label.

 

[buckpasser]

That article sure didn't do much in the way of buying sympathy from me for the hunter, Johnny King. Supposedly 8 shots just to kill it, and with 2 fired by the cousin. Sure not a tale of responsible/ethical marksmanship in any way, shape, manner, or form. Don't consider myself a snob, but that makes me one I'm 100% fine with the label.

My opinions are purely related to the scoring decisions on that deer, so in no way am I offended by your position. My point is, had a child (especially of the right person) cleanly killed that buck with one shot, and it not been sold to a collector, the score might be different, and that’s not right.

 

[biggdogg]

Buckmasters has a scoring system just like what you want. And yet it has never caught on...

 

[James12]

I only like the Net because it means someone had it officially scored, and it reigns in some of the GROSSly over-estimated-long-armed photos and scores you see posted shortly after the kill. I like to see what type of deer are really coming from what area, and unfortunately having them legitimately scored is the only way to shorten some of the arm angles . Ain’t nothing wrong with a long arm, we’ve all done it. I just like to see the true score on larger deer. As for the scoring, I’d prefer to give the deer credit for what the animal actually grew! But, you’ll never eat those horns.

 

[catch22]

thanks for all the constructive comments and the votes. Looks like a 70/30 split based on 51 votes.

 

[Jim Boyd]

thanks for all the constructive comments and the votes. Looks like a 70/30 split based on 51 votes.

Looks like the percentages stayed the same all the way down the line.

Good comments and good arguments on both sides.

 

[uturn]

I love the history of conservation, I read on it quite a bit! Across the River as his facts right!

Scorin for me has always been in the eye of the be/holder! At the fire pit, on the tailgate or the wall! No deductions there!

Great topic of conversation always!