Pretty stinging indictment on the Church in America

[Artfuldodger]

Leviticus 20:24&26
But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.
26You must be holy because I, the LORD, am holy. I have set you apart from all other people to be my very own.

Exodus 33:16
How will anyone know that you look favorably on me--on me and on your people--if you don't go with us? For your presence among us sets your people and me apart from all other people on the earth."

1 Chronicles 17:21
What other nation on earth is like your people Israel? What other nation, O God, have you redeemed from slavery to be your own people? You made a great name for yourself when you redeemed your people from Egypt. You performed awesome miracles and drove out the nations that stood in their way.

(I wonder if the Jews being slaves to Egypt was the reason God chose Israel? To use their slavery as an example of the child of the free woman. The slave to the Law, etc.)

1 Chronicles 17:22
You made your people Israel your very own forever, and you, LORD, have become their God.

(There is no other way around it. We, as Gentiles, must be grafted in to this commonwealth. We must become adopted Jews.)

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

1 Corinthians 10:32
Do not become a stumbling block, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God,

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

(every interpretation uses the phrase "but now" or "and now" as if took the time event of the Cross to be so.)

Deuteronomy 4:8
And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

(I'm thinking, Israel. With a tad of Greek thrown in.)

Psalm 147:19-20
He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel.
20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. Praise the LORD.

(It's looking like it started out a Jewish thing after all. The Law that is.)

Psalm 89:34-36
"My covenant I will not violate, Nor will I alter the utterance of My lips. 35"Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David. 36His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

(This covenant being the Seed himself. The covenant that replaced the Law)

Galatians 3:16& 17
Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended.
17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

(The Law didn't replace the promised covenant of the Seed. The Seed covenant was promised first. The Law was interim and temporary.)

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 3:20-22
Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin. 21But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile.

(verse 33 is another where all interpretations use "but now.")

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested.

But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been revealed.

"But now" makes it an event in time. A prophesy/promise that finally came forth in time.
Simple question, hard answer? Did man have to wait for this revelation or manifestation for it to be so?
Remember it was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.

There was definitely as division yet there was a promise that the division would be removed by the Cross in the future. Their was a revelation that it would be removed by the Seed and the real offspring of Abraham would be revealed.

Yet since we know God's true plan "now", can we look beyond what we know now by revelation and say that it was always about the true offspring even before it took the Seed to die on the Cross to make it so?

 

[hummerpoo]

Did man have to wait for this revelation or manifestation for it to be so?

The Law is spiritual.
Jesus fulfillment (perfection) is spiritual.
The implementation ("to be so") is spiritual.
Your question "to wait" is temporal;
just as "But now" is temporal.
(revelation of the spiritual is temporal)
We have to sort the apples and oranges (spirit and flesh);
then the question for each of us is,
"Which is our reality, spirit or flesh?"

 

[Israel]

Investment is in an interesting term whose common usage is better understood when looking at its roots.

late 14c., "to clothe in the official robes of an office," from Latin investire "to clothe in, cover, surround," from in "in, into" (from PIE root *en "in") + vestire "to dress, clothe," from PIE *wes- (2) "to clothe," extended form of root *eu- "to dress."

I don't know that anything God has said, in any form, at any time, to any man (whether recorded or not) does not come in any deniable fashion with a seal testifying to this "I, the Lord, have an interest in what man is".

The god of the philosopher, or better, the god of philosophy may have granted to him (that god) certain attributes. Among these we (the christian) may find ourselves in mostly agreement, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. The philosopher might even approach some understanding of unity, of oneness, what we commonly call a monotheistic apprehension. In other words "there must be a one...over all...who is alone (sole) prime cause, prime mover. A philosopher might then, even if so understanding of these attributes, (that he, himself has attributed) be moved to accept that as this is so (to himself) there is now found a pressing toward, if only in reason...to seek to live, somehow, in accord to this "being". It is, after all, all powerful, sole source of reason for anything and everything he knows, and knower...of all. In that sense at the very least, philosophy appears to be able to take a man "pretty far" in some understanding...of God.

But it is found woefully incomplete in a thing that we the christian say is apprehended "in the faith". Mercy. Philosophy cannot come to this, it is always the thing beyond reason and man's reasonings, the thing that most undercuts what appears rational thought if one is strict to it...for in that form, and strictest discipline of reason there is a manifest rejection of any concretion that says "a thing must be because I want it to be so".


No, mercy cannot be arrived at in any of man's deepest considerations, most noble (ha!) thoughts and pursuits of mind. For the mind will inevitably be lead, in that strict reasoning to know a "need" for it...but that strictest of discipline can never allow for "just because I know I need it, it must be there". So, even the mightiest "god of philospophy" or man's reason can never know what is first and foremost revealed only by God to any man, and we know, only found through Christ, mercy.

For the philosopher must accept, if approaching with reason, "I may have some intellectual sense of what this form of the "most real" takes, but because my understanding is so incomplete, I can never know presently if I am "in accord with it (him)" This is where the knowledge of need for mercy may come, but the mind, under that discipline must, again reject..."I cannot fabricate/postulate upon my personal need (that seemingly weakest of all intellectual motive)...and then curiously finds itself forswearing the very thing, the chiefest of things God would manifest...in His investment...to man.

This is where what we call the foolishness of God so far outstrips man's greatest wisdom. In this thing manifest through Jesus Christ, mercy. Here our God shows his investment is never less than total and complete to man "knowing Him". He invests in that one sense of "putting on flesh" (Because the children were partakers of flesh and blood he likewise partook of the same...) And also the spending in toto of Himself in that. The "all in" God.
To see Christ is to never see anything less than this, other than this.
The philosopher may muse "how much could this god be interested in my knowing him?" For the christian this must be first knowing....even in what may remain of all unknowing in fullness, even to what may remain of errors of ignorance...and even a willfulness that might later be revealed as disobedience. Or a presumption to be countered, and refuted...by mercy.

And lastly investment is made in some understanding of hope for a return on what is invested. And hope...maketh not ashamed.

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Corinthians 10:32
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God.

Why is Paul still making a distinction between the three?

 

[Israel]

In Christ...being the only place the middle wall of partition is seen to be torn down...must be carried in the consciousness, always...not to emphasize the distinction...but lest we, even "in Christ" begin to think of ourselves in a distinction that gives birth to pride, which begets a treating of "others" with despite.

It almost seems a paradox, no? To be "in Christ" (who is most distinct) is the place where we discover that toward man...we are to indulge no separation of superiority.

 

[Miguel Cervantes]

In Christ...being the only place the middle wall of partition is seen to be torn down...must be carried in the consciousness, always...not to emphasize the distinction...but lest we, even "in Christ" begin to think of ourselves in a distinction that gives birth to pride, which begets a treating of "others" with despite.

It almost seems a paradox, no? To be "in Christ" (who is most distinct) is the place where we discover that toward man...we are to indulge no separation of superiority.

A lesson most fail to learn, living in the midst of their humanity.

 

[hobbs27]

John 14: “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Father Revealed
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

Jesus went to prepare a place for His disciples and us. So they and us could be where He was... Where was He that He wanted us to be also?
V. 10....In the Father!

Jesus redeemed man from sin. Sin prevented man from being in the Father, until Christ went to the cross and ( prepared a place) , all men were doomed to the grave..Sheol... Hades.

But now a place is made, and we being in Christ and He in us, are in the Father and He in us... This is a New Covenant phenomenon... Not possible in the old covenant because Christ had not prepared a place that we could be where He was also.

 

[gordon 2]

John 14: “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Father Revealed
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

Jesus went to prepare a place for His disciples and us. So they and us could be where He was... Where was He that He wanted us to be also?
V. 10....In the Father!

Jesus redeemed man from sin. Sin prevented man from being in the Father, until Christ went to the cross and ( prepared a place) , all men were doomed to the grave..Sheol... Hades.

But now a place is made, and we being in Christ and He in us, are in the Father and He in us... This is a New Covenant phenomenon... Not possible in the old covenant because Christ had not prepared a place that we could be where He was also.

How can you be sure of this? How do you know that mansions apply to covenants and not something else?

Did people in former covenants have eternal life? If they did they were they not "in God"? And if they were "in God" were they not in Christ whom I know to be God?

Does Moses have a mansion, a house, with God? Why did Moses and Elijah show up at the transfiguration if they are doomed to Hades? Now about Noah? Does Noah have a mansion with God today? Did he have eternal life when he valued God's counsels enough to weather the storm? Or is he to Hades, doomed not being in our covenant phenomenon?

God never said to Moses for example he would prepare a place for his people? A rest?

I must confess, the way I understand scripture people have always been able to have eternal life, that is a close one on one relationship with God, the father, the son due the Holy Spirit. What is different now is that through Christ gentiles especially but also Jews are called to eternal life and not just a few good people who still have God as a companion despite a world of sin and sorrow. Despite the severe destruction of man as the glory of God due to living for a looooong time in a world of sin making man a creature of cowardice and inglorious, we are afforded the opportunity of a mansion with God one of many. Let us not waste the opportunity. Eternal life never made cowards of those who walk with God. To say it (x) is not possible because of this or that as I walk with God...seems something misspoken perhaps?

 

[gemcgrew]

In Christ...being the only place the middle wall of partition is seen to be torn down...must be carried in the consciousness, always...not to emphasize the distinction...but lest we, even "in Christ" begin to think of ourselves in a distinction that gives birth to pride, which begets a treating of "others" with despite.

It almost seems a paradox, no? To be "in Christ" (who is most distinct) is the place where we discover that toward man...we are to indulge no separation of superiority.

Being "in Christ" is the superior position.

 

[welderguy]

John 14: “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Father Revealed
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

Jesus went to prepare a place for His disciples and us. So they and us could be where He was... Where was He that He wanted us to be also?
V. 10....In the Father!

Jesus redeemed man from sin. Sin prevented man from being in the Father, until Christ went to the cross and ( prepared a place) , all men were doomed to the grave..Sheol... Hades.

But now a place is made, and we being in Christ and He in us, are in the Father and He in us... This is a New Covenant phenomenon... Not possible in the old covenant because Christ had not prepared a place that we could be where He was also.

According to John 17, we are one with Jesus and the Father(like you said), but also will be where He is( two separate things). We are not where He is yet, because we are not yet able to behold His glory, as He describes....yet

John 17:23-24
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 

[Israel]

Being "in Christ" is the superior position.

Amen.
Precisely.
Which is why there is no need for indulging ourselves to matters of seeking to make a display.

 

[hobbs27]

How can you be sure of this? How do you know that mansions apply to covenants and not something else?

I didn't say mansions were covenants. I don't believe they are.

Did people in former covenants have eternal life? If they did they were they not "in God"? And if they were "in God" were they not in Christ whom I know to be God?

In the old covenant people went to the grave.. Sheol or Hades. A holding place for the dead. If I'm not mistaken the Epistles refer to the Old Testament dead as the dead ones... But when referring to the dead that accepted Christ in the New Covenant they were called the dead in Christ... And they slept. I don't think old Testament dead ones had eternal life but would be raised to life.

Does Moses have a mansion, a house, with God? Why did Moses and Elijah show up at the transfiguration if they are doomed to Hades? Now about Noah? Does Noah have a mansion with God today? Did he have eternal life when he valued God's counsels enough to weather the storm? Or is he to Hades, doomed not being in our covenant phenomenon?

Moses and Elijah were there in a vision.. What of Solomon that was raised by the witch of endor, he wasn't in Christ or heaven, but a place of rest. Sheol.. We know none of these people could be with the Father because Jesus said no man had been to heaven.

I must confess, the way I understand scripture people have always been able to have eternal life, that is a close one on one relationship with God, the father, the son due the Holy Spirit. What is different now is that through Christ gentiles especially but also Jews are called to eternal life and not just a few good people who still have God as a companion despite a world of sin and sorrow. Despite the severe destruction of man as the glory of God due to living for a looooong time in a world of sin making man a creature of cowardice and inglorious, we are afforded the opportunity of a mansion with God one of many. Let us not waste the opportunity. Eternal life never made cowards of those who walk with God. To say it (x) is not possible because of this or that as I walk with God...seems something misspoken perhaps?

Perhaps.... I always thought eternal life through the forgiveness of sin was the good news.. But if nothing changed at the cross, then there was no good news at all... Was there?

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Moses and Elijah were there in a vision..

hmmm.. a group vision, at the same time, seeing the same thing. Enough that they discuss building temples to Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.

Tell me more about these group visions......

 

[hobbs27]

hmmm.. a group vision, at the same time, seeing the same thing. Enough that they discuss building temples to Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.

Tell me more about these group visions......

Hmm. Maybe you should be telling me more. What did Moses and Elijah have to say about building a temple?

 

[hobbs27]

Hey Pappy!

After seeing Jesus (Grace) , Elijah(prophets) and Moses (The Law) talking together, The Prophets and The Law faded away and the disciples entered a cloud in which a voice came out... "This is my beloved Son: hear him."

They saw a vision of the passing of Law and prophets, and the rise of a new world order.. Grace. They.. We need to hear Him!

 

[Israel]

In the matter of Moses and Elijah.
Both faithful servants who bore the testimony of God's ineluctable power and righteousness. Both chosen to an end fulfilled in glory.
And no saint dare speak a word against them without reproof.

But we are left with a testimony that is, in all things written given as our brother Paul has said:

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

We are given to see things in the testimonies of both Moses and Elijah. Again, none can deny their use by God, nor their benefit to us. Yet in that we are given also to see, for our admonition, at least those in Christ, of the places where we are allowed to see a departure with consequences, in the smiting of the rock and the complaint that Elijah alone "stood" for God.
One had to bear not entering into the "promised land", the other a reproof, and the passing of his mantle.
None of us is unable to identify, there. Or, if we cannot, perhaps we have yet to learn.

One pressed beyond his measure by a people he saw as unwilling to obey, and acting and speaking unadvisedly; the other carrying the self pity of a man believing he alone remained in obedience.

Of course none of us is fit to rebuke them, or even find a fault, for if we are honest (are we honest men?), that buckling seen in them, allowed to be seen in them we might admit...and therefore allowed to be seen in us, is a bit closer to home than a written page. But no matter to that, unless we care to deny it.

This winepress in which we see our Lord's victory in salvation is as much a revelation of our commonality as man as it is the exceeding glory of His triumph. He did not buckle nor waver, with face set like flint, without complaint nor whimper, through and past all test where others may have seemed to fall short.

He steadfastly held man and His Father, all of earthy, and all of Heavenly together in himself, never scorning the one, nor complaining to the One of all He had been given to do, in what He was, a man.

How far we go to distance ourselves, to distinguish ourselves never goes unseen. A sheep before its shearers, remaining dumb, simply appears as all other sheep. But we are given to see a different way. We are given to see the only One ever fit to utter a word, there, in complete and total righteousness both to resist the shearing as completely unmerited and the righteous rebuke against sheep for being so dumb.

But smiting of rock is never seen in Him, with attendant scornful words toward what appears rebellious. No whining of "why must this all fall only upon me...?" Instead we hear "of all you have given me I have lost none"...and "what shall I say then 'Father save me from this hour?' but it is for this very hour I have come"

Yes, there were things to be spoken of by Moses and Elijah to Jesus Christ of pressures to be faced "in his upcoming demise", pitfalls made plain.

Who appeared in glory, and spoke of his death which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

In Christ there is no failure to enter. No passing of mantle for another to fulfill. Not one impulse in that Most Distinguished One, to distinguish himself from His brothers by scorn, nor betray the calling of His Father by complaint. We too may learn through Christ, of all things written for our admonition. We may learn to pay heed.

If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. Remember the word that I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well. But they will treat you like this on account of My name, because they do not know the One who sent Me.

 

[gordon 2]

hmmm.. a group vision, at the same time, seeing the same thing. Enough that they discuss building temples to Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.

Tell me more about these group visions......

Exactly... I never considered it a vision... but can see why some would...

 

[NE GA Pappy]

I have never heard of a group of men having the same vision at the same time. I doubt this was a vision either. I think it was the real thing. I see no reason to think it was anything but an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah to minister to Jesus. Why wouldn't it be?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Perhaps.... I always thought eternal life through the forgiveness of sin was the good news.. But if nothing changed at the cross, then there was no good news at all... Was there?

I don't think Paul got the memo either. If everything worked out of the time sequence, then why did God go to the trouble to place it within time?
He could have said, "hey, it's in the script, that's close enough for me. No need to look forward to the promises."