centerpin fan
Senior Member
It's extremely sad that 9,572 churches "don't seem to mind" about gay ordination. I'll say it again:
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Problems for Presbyterians
- Thread starter hobbs27
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It's extremely sad that 9,572 churches "don't seem to mind" about gay ordination. I'll say it again:
hobbs27
Senior Member
It should have never come to a vote, I just watched this story on the local atlanta news and they had a so-called woman preacher saying this is evidence that the spirit is working in the church----She's right, but it's not the Holy Spirit, it's an evil spirit, and she's a false prophet because she said Gods word is reforming. We are warned of people like her.
WaltL1
Senior Member
Yeah Im not arguing whether they were right or wrong.
I thought those numbers would have been the other way around. I was surprised.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
What LAW is this Paul speaks of God's or the locals? If you believe it is in reference to Genesis, why doesn't the Law of Moses tell us women can't teach? Why would it matter if the Law has been abolished? Genesis doesn't prevent women from speaking in Church. We have been liberated from the Law.
Why are women allowed to speak in some Churches? Should they all wait until they get home and ask their husband?
34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
What LAW is this Paul speaks of God's or the locals? If you believe it is in reference to Genesis, why doesn't the Law of Moses tell us women can't teach? Why would it matter if the Law has been abolished? Genesis doesn't prevent women from speaking in Church. We have been liberated from the Law.
Why are women allowed to speak in some Churches? Should they all wait until they get home and ask their husband?
WaltL1
Senior Member
I think maybe you are focused on what a couple of women have said and are ignoring what those numbers clearly show.
Those are huge margins. It wasn't even close. It took men's votes also to do that. Im trying to find the numbers of how many women are on the Assembly but its a safe bet that its male dominated by a wide margin. The women probably had the LEAST amount of influence just due to the numbers.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
You've taken a lot of liberty and creativity into turning the deception and fall into the devil teaching women. I've never seen it presented as you have. You've changed the meaning of deception to teaching. I see a difference.It is true that Paul referenced Adam, Eve, and the fall when describing why women can't preach. I can't answer that. Maybe that started the pecking order we have now. Man is the head of woman.
Who was the first to sin Adam or Eve? Whom did God have a covenant with?
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
After the fall woman took a subordinate role to man. Why didn't the cross restore the original order?
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
After the fall woman took a subordinate role to man. Why didn't the cross restore the original order?
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I think people like me are being enlightened to what and how Paul teaches. Paul presents things and you think that is what he is saying and then he rebukes himself. He sets people up and then hits them with something else. I don't think people understand what Paul is doing. So yes in that sense Christians are reforming what Paul is truly teaching.
Example:
Paul walks into the town square and points at the statue of an unknown god, and says, (in effect) "This god you worship that you do not, let me tell you the real truth about him" and then he proceeds to tell them the gospel. (See Acts 17: 22-24).
Rather than saying their god is false, Paul grants them that their own presumptions may be true, and adds a new twist to those presumptions that eventually will overturn their belief system!
Paul uses this same style to address celibacy, where he says "Now for the matters you wrote about, 'It is good for a man not to marry'." and then reverses himself just a few verses later by stating "it is better to marry than to be on fire". Grammatically, most scholars believe the first statement is a quote. He is saying, "So you say it is better for a man to never touch a woman". (See 1 Corinthians 7: 1 and 9)
Paul does the same thing with many issues, including kosher laws, vegetarianism, circumcision, works righteousness, etc....He is always presenting the opposing argument or assumptions of his listeners first, then overturning their beliefs.
Furthermore, he uses literary plays on words. In Titus 1: 12-13, the only Cretan who told the truth was the one who said all Cretans are liars. In another bit of humor, he says: I wish that those Jews commanding circumcision would slip with the knife and castrate themselves (See Gal 5: 12)
http://paulonwomen.blogspot.com/
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Could someone remind me exactly which laws were removed by Jesus dying on the cross?
My belief or concept of Christianity is Jesus died for all of them. Now what I don't understand is why do we continue to add laws and requirements back to our free grace salvation? If we couldn't save our selves in the first place by keeping laws, why would we feel the need to add laws or requirements back to salvation? If one lives by the Law, he will die by the Law.
Either the cross fulfilled all laws or perhaps only ceremonial laws.
If you believe so and continue to live under the Law then you shall surely die under the Law.
I believe God gives every Christian or person the option, accept that you can't do it and place your trust in Jesus or continue to live by the Law of Moses. I believe God gives us the option using our freewill. I also believe that if you continue to live by the Law, you will be judged by the Law. Perhaps even Christians. Still that's a strange concept, Christians who live by the law.
It's strange to me now but I actually tried it for about half my life. I can assure you that I had no luck in saving myself.
My belief or concept of Christianity is Jesus died for all of them. Now what I don't understand is why do we continue to add laws and requirements back to our free grace salvation? If we couldn't save our selves in the first place by keeping laws, why would we feel the need to add laws or requirements back to salvation? If one lives by the Law, he will die by the Law.
Either the cross fulfilled all laws or perhaps only ceremonial laws.
If you believe so and continue to live under the Law then you shall surely die under the Law.
I believe God gives every Christian or person the option, accept that you can't do it and place your trust in Jesus or continue to live by the Law of Moses. I believe God gives us the option using our freewill. I also believe that if you continue to live by the Law, you will be judged by the Law. Perhaps even Christians. Still that's a strange concept, Christians who live by the law.
It's strange to me now but I actually tried it for about half my life. I can assure you that I had no luck in saving myself.
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
If you truly believe Paul is teaching us to follow laws of gender and sexual orientation then continue to live by those laws. See how that works out for you. Maybe you might want to add a few laws for yourself to follow including lust and anger.
As for me I'll place my trust in Jesus and his redeeming death on the cross. I have truly been blessed by finally understanding the concept of free grace and will continue to teach this Good News.
Now as I look back it is so strange that people can't see what Paul is teaching and how he teaches.
I guess it would be like a Christian finally understanding Jesus returning in 70AD. I myself haven't fully been enlightened to this but it does tug on my heart. I can't rule out being enlightened to this by the Holy Spirit in the future but I can see how someone else could be. When enlightened many scriptures finally fall into place and one wonders how they ever looked at them in the past. They don't understand why others can't see it.
Reformation if you will or want to use that term.
As for me I'll place my trust in Jesus and his redeeming death on the cross. I have truly been blessed by finally understanding the concept of free grace and will continue to teach this Good News.
Now as I look back it is so strange that people can't see what Paul is teaching and how he teaches.
I guess it would be like a Christian finally understanding Jesus returning in 70AD. I myself haven't fully been enlightened to this but it does tug on my heart. I can't rule out being enlightened to this by the Holy Spirit in the future but I can see how someone else could be. When enlightened many scriptures finally fall into place and one wonders how they ever looked at them in the past. They don't understand why others can't see it.
Reformation if you will or want to use that term.
speedcop
Senior Member
There was a time I remember when I was young that if a member or members of the church we attended started "whispering or leaning towards the word of the world" instead of the word of God AS QUOTED in the bible, the deacons of the church would address it pronto, like firemen smelling smoke.
Now as an older man I can clearly see the yellow brick road the devil has laid down. I see it even now, in my church. Not drastic but suttle little things to "fit in" with todays changing world they say. Im not a scripturalist so I dont argue verses. I do remember very clearly that God destroyed soddom and gomorrah for a specific reason. So man continues to change the word of God for his own selfish reasons and I believe that by that sword alone he will die.
Now as an older man I can clearly see the yellow brick road the devil has laid down. I see it even now, in my church. Not drastic but suttle little things to "fit in" with todays changing world they say. Im not a scripturalist so I dont argue verses. I do remember very clearly that God destroyed soddom and gomorrah for a specific reason. So man continues to change the word of God for his own selfish reasons and I believe that by that sword alone he will die.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
God did destroy Sodom & Gomorroh for their selfishness that manifested itself in evil ways. Their inhabitants were selfish, greedy, inhospitable, prideful, and idolatrous.
They never showed any hospitality to strangers from other towns and didn't even help the people of their own town.
I've seen this story of showing no love and increased hatred of others repeatedly in the Bible. Becoming more and more selfish and evil by dwelling in their selfish ways. Idolatry always plays a part of it.
Ezek. 16:49 "This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."
I don't know how city destruction or nation destruction by God happens after the cross compared to before the cross.
I don't know what lesson I can learn from Sodom & Gomorrah from my "being washed" prospective other than we should love and help people and to not be selfish.
Stand firm until the end and only worship God. Believe we are just as evil as the people of Sodom and without Jesus we are unrighteous.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
In the story of Lot and the visit by angels in the form of men, all of the men from Sodom show up at his house to rape the visitors. Why did they want to do this? Were all of the men of Sodom homosexuals? How did they procreate? Why would Lot offer his his daughters to a gang of known homosexuals?
No, I'm pretty sure these were all heterosexual men. They wanted to rape visitors to show them or prove something.
A similar story repeats itself in Judges. A stranger was invited in an old man's house. A mob of heterosexual men from the city shows up to rape the visitor. The old man offers his concubine & daughter instead. The mob raped his concubine, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
Heterosexual sex is not a sin but rape is. Again this mob had a point to prove to the visitor and his savior the old man.
No, I'm pretty sure these were all heterosexual men. They wanted to rape visitors to show them or prove something.
A similar story repeats itself in Judges. A stranger was invited in an old man's house. A mob of heterosexual men from the city shows up to rape the visitor. The old man offers his concubine & daughter instead. The mob raped his concubine, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
Heterosexual sex is not a sin but rape is. Again this mob had a point to prove to the visitor and his savior the old man.
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I must stress that God destroyed cities for selfishness and idolatry and Jesus condemned cities for unbelief. What is unbelief? It is when one doesn't believe that the death of JESUS paid the price for our sins. It is a belief that one is righteous without Jesus. It is a belief that one can save themselves(even in part) by living a certain way.
Well I can tell you it isn't possible and that one must repent from believing such foolishness. One must change his way of thinking and suddenly realize one needs Jesus.
The following has been revealed to me from Matthews. It's a shame it hasn't been revealed to everyone. Certain things are only revealed to certain people. Regardless the passage is about replacing your yoke with the yoke of Jesus. Babes get the meaning and the wise & prudent don't. Finally I can rest. After 50 years suddenly I'm a babe and not a wise & prudent person. I can't explain my enlightenment but even Jesus said his enlightenment comes from his Father:
20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11: 20-30.
Well I can tell you it isn't possible and that one must repent from believing such foolishness. One must change his way of thinking and suddenly realize one needs Jesus.
The following has been revealed to me from Matthews. It's a shame it hasn't been revealed to everyone. Certain things are only revealed to certain people. Regardless the passage is about replacing your yoke with the yoke of Jesus. Babes get the meaning and the wise & prudent don't. Finally I can rest. After 50 years suddenly I'm a babe and not a wise & prudent person. I can't explain my enlightenment but even Jesus said his enlightenment comes from his Father:
20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11: 20-30.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Chorazin, along with Bethsaida and Capernaum, was named in the gospels of Matthew and Luke as "cities" (more likely just villages) in which Jesus performed "mighty works". However, because these towns rejected his work ("they had not changed their ways"), they were subsequently cursed.
I feel really terrible for people, cities, and nations who don't fully understand and repent from their belief that they can save themselves. I don't understand how someone can still be concerned with splinters in others eyes with planks(no repentance) in their own eyes.
Please do as Jesus request and repent. Please change your mind and realize you need Jesus. Why continue to place this yoke upon yourself and your fellow Christian brothers?
Please change your ways. Believe his work. Believe in his redemption on the cross.
I feel really terrible for people, cities, and nations who don't fully understand and repent from their belief that they can save themselves. I don't understand how someone can still be concerned with splinters in others eyes with planks(no repentance) in their own eyes.
Please do as Jesus request and repent. Please change your mind and realize you need Jesus. Why continue to place this yoke upon yourself and your fellow Christian brothers?
Please change your ways. Believe his work. Believe in his redemption on the cross.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Yes, the yoke and burden of the law is hard and heavy, yet it seems to man to be easier to understand than grace.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
More problems:
The Presbyterian General Assembly’s decision to protest Israeli policies by divesting stock in three major companies has triggered condemnations and congratulations, with the Israeli Embassy calling the resolution “shameful.”.
By a seven-vote margin, the Presbyterians became the largest American church to endorse divestment. Friday’s vote at the assembly’s national meeting in Detroit was 310 to 303.
The assembly voted to divest from Caterpillar, Hewlett-Packard and Motorola Solutions. Those companies are said to supply Israel with tools used in building Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which Palestinians want as the capital of an independent state. Divestment from the three companies would total about $21 million.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-presbyterians-divest-reaction-20140621-story.html
The Presbyterian General Assembly’s decision to protest Israeli policies by divesting stock in three major companies has triggered condemnations and congratulations, with the Israeli Embassy calling the resolution “shameful.”.
By a seven-vote margin, the Presbyterians became the largest American church to endorse divestment. Friday’s vote at the assembly’s national meeting in Detroit was 310 to 303.
The assembly voted to divest from Caterpillar, Hewlett-Packard and Motorola Solutions. Those companies are said to supply Israel with tools used in building Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which Palestinians want as the capital of an independent state. Divestment from the three companies would total about $21 million.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-presbyterians-divest-reaction-20140621-story.html
StriperAddict
Senior Member
I find this ridiculous as well. No one told the Presbyterian leadership that the Lord Jesus and all the bible authors were Jewish I suppose, and that Israel is God's time piece on prophecy, and the all important Genisis verse "I will bless those who bless thee, and curse those who cure thee" ??
As the elect ought flee from them, another spirit-less institution bites the dust
hobbs27
Senior Member
I dont get it, why does this matter to anyone? Shouldn't they invest their money the way they want to?
