The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.

[BanjoPicker]

Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

If law relates to sin and God made the Law, did he not create sin by giving us the Law?
If not why was the law increased to make sin increase? It seems like the Law was given to show us grace. Without God's law, sin would not exist.

It's almost like the whole Old Testament was God's plan to show us that we needed salvation in the form of His son, Jesus.

Rom. 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abounded:
Meaning The law with its many statutes entered to condemn the many kinds of offences and make man know in detail what sin was. It was added until the seed should come (Gal. 3:19-25). Those who accept Christ receive free pardon of all offences and grace abounds and reigns in life (v 20-21; 1 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 1:5). If one sin was to great and heinous for grace to pardon, then grace would cease to reign in righteousness and sin would be more powerful than Jesus Christ and His power.

 

[BanjoPicker]

If sin is a law, there must be someone who made the law and enforces it. There could be no law unless it was made by somebody. It would be of no value unless it could be enforced according to the purpose for which it was made. The devil made and enforces the law of sin and death by demons and spirit forces, and it can only be annulled in free moral agents by a greater law enforced by a greater power (Heb. 2:14, 15). Free wills seek the annulment of the law of sin and death by applying to the court of Heaven, according to the normal law (Rom. 8:1-13). Both laws conflict, as stated in Rom. 7:7-25, thus proving there are real persons and powers back of each law. This proves that sin is a real spirit and nature in man separate from man's own body, soul, and spirit. When man is "freed from sin," he is cut loose from the body of sin and needs no longer be chained again to it, if he walks and lives in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16-26; Rom. 8:1-13).

 

[BanjoPicker]

Both sin and death entered the perfect sinless world by the malice of the devil (Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Jn. 3:8).

God originally created everything SINLESS. Even Satan and his angels and demons were sinless until they decided to rebel against God (Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:11-17; 1 Tim. 3:6; Mt. 24:41; Lk. 10:18). There was no devil, originally, to cause Lucifer to sin and become the devil or adversary of God. He originated sin when he, by his power of CHOICE, decide not to serve and obey God any longer. Sin in the beginning, then was transgression of the law, and the abuse or misuse of good faculties which were not sinful in themselves, but became the agents of transgression when free wills decided, of their own creative choice power, to transgress.
When the first man was created he was formed sinless, but by choosing to sin he became a sinner (Gen. 3; Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Tim. 2:14). After man had sinned, Satan and his rebel spirits were stronger of the two sets of rebels. Before sinning, man had power over Satan and his rebels by being united with God and co-operating with Him, but after man sinned, he was cut off from the divine help and lost that power over Satan. Lucifer and the spirit rebels were naturally stronger then the two human rebels, and usurped man's dominion and grained control of the world and man.
Adam after the fall, was helpless to prevent this control, so yielded to Satan, sold out, to him, and became an habitual sinner and a child of the devil by choice and life (Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:1-3; 1 Jn. 3:8; 5:19).

 

[Artfuldodger]

If there is no evil, there can be no good. If there is no law, there can be no sin.
Law is good, sin is evil. Adam could not have sinned if God didn't tell him what the offense would be. God defined the sin by giving Adam a covenant.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

So, help me out here. Are you taking the position that Adam and Eve sinned because God told them not to? Or that it was God’s purpose for them to sin so He could show grace?

Or what about the idea that regardless of whether they sinned or not God loved them just the same and with their sin He manifest that love to them through His grace.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

My opinion is God knew He’d give man a choice, and because of that He knew man would fall and needed redemption.

Maybe a simpler way to say it is God knew his love for them would cover them regardless of what decision they made.

 

[BanjoPicker]

Rom. 7:7-25
Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law Sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not know sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law said, thou shall not covet.
Meaning The law itself is not sinful in demanding me to live right. The law only makes known what SIN REALLY IS (3:20; 4:15; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).
Thou shall not covet here and in 13:9; From Ex. 20:17.

Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. for without the law sin was dead.
Meaning Sin is here pictured as a self-acting spirit which at one time controlled Paul and worked in him all manner of concupiscence or sinful lusts. It used the coming of the commandment as an occasion to assert its control over his life not letting him obey the law. Sin was not active before the law came for it had no reason to assert its power until then. But as soon as the commandment came forbidding certain things, sin came to life and by its lusts made him break the law so that he would have to pay the death penalty (v 8, 9).

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came sin revied, and I died.
Meaning Gr. anazao, to live again. Only here, 14:9; Lk. 15:24, 32; Rev. 20:5.

Rom. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Meaning The commandment condemned and killed me.

Rom. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Meaning Sin took advantage of my helpless state and used the law to deceive me and kill me (v 11).

Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good.
Meaning I do not blame the law, for it is just and good in its demands.

Rom. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Meaning Question. The Jew would ask, "Do you mean to say that the law is holy, just, and good, and yet it is the cause of your death?" The answer is "God forbid." It was not the law that killed me, but sin that would not let me obey the law. This made sin appear what it really is--a deceiver, a deadly enemy, and a killer (v 13).

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Meaning I know now that the law is spiritual and demands of me what is holy.
Carnal, sold under sin. Gr. sarkikos, fleshly; natural; human (Rom. 7:14; 15:27; 1 Cor. 3:1-4; 9:11; 2 Cor. 10:4; Heb. 7:16). Here it means the full depravity of fallen man, sold as a slave and under the control of animal appetites and evil spirit forces (v 14).

Rom. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Meaning After showing in v 7-14 that sin is more powerful than the law, Paul now shows that sin is more powerful than man who is a slave to sin (v 15-25). I do not approve my slavery to sin. What I wish to practice, I cannot, for I am an unwilling slave to sin (v 15).

Rom. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Meaning If I am forced to do what I do not want to do, then it is not I, but sin that enslaves by its indwelling power ( v 16-20).

Rom. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Meaning Gr. oikeo. Here; v 18, 20; 8:9, 11; 1 Cor. 3:16; 7:12-13; 1 Tim. 6:16.

 

[Spotlite]

Maybe a simpler way to say it is God knew his love for them would cover them regardless of what decision they made.

I’m not sure how His love, or a multitude of love from anyone covered Charles Manson??

 

[Israel]

Rom. 7:7-25
Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law Sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not know sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law said, thou shall not covet.
Meaning The law itself is not sinful in demanding me to live right. The law only makes known what SIN REALLY IS (3:20; 4:15; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).
Thou shall not covet here and in 13:9; From Ex. 20:17.

Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. for without the law sin was dead.
Meaning Sin is here pictured as a self-acting spirit which at one time controlled Paul and worked in him all manner of concupiscence or sinful lusts. It used the coming of the commandment as an occasion to assert its control over his life not letting him obey the law. Sin was not active before the law came for it had no reason to assert its power until then. But as soon as the commandment came forbidding certain things, sin came to life and by its lusts made him break the law so that he would have to pay the death penalty (v 8, 9).

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came sin revied, and I died.
Meaning Gr. anazao, to live again. Only here, 14:9; Lk. 15:24, 32; Rev. 20:5.

Rom. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Meaning The commandment condemned and killed me.

Rom. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Meaning Sin took advantage of my helpless state and used the law to deceive me and kill me (v 11).

Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good.
Meaning I do not blame the law, for it is just and good in its demands.

Rom. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Meaning Question. The Jew would ask, "Do you mean to say that the law is holy, just, and good, and yet it is the cause of your death?" The answer is "God forbid." It was not the law that killed me, but sin that would not let me obey the law. This made sin appear what it really is--a deceiver, a deadly enemy, and a killer (v 13).

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Meaning I know now that the law is spiritual and demands of me what is holy.
Carnal, sold under sin. Gr. sarkikos, fleshly; natural; human (Rom. 7:14; 15:27; 1 Cor. 3:1-4; 9:11; 2 Cor. 10:4; Heb. 7:16). Here it means the full depravity of fallen man, sold as a slave and under the control of animal appetites and evil spirit forces (v 14).

Rom. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Meaning After showing in v 7-14 that sin is more powerful than the law, Paul now shows that sin is more powerful than man who is a slave to sin (v 15-25). I do not approve my slavery to sin. What I wish to practice, I cannot, for I am an unwilling slave to sin (v 15).

Rom. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Meaning If I am forced to do what I do not want to do, then it is not I, but sin that enslaves by its indwelling power ( v 16-20).

Rom. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Meaning Gr. oikeo. Here; v 18, 20; 8:9, 11; 1 Cor. 3:16; 7:12-13; 1 Tim. 6:16.

Does the natural man see this thus? Or even have a hint to such working?

Even such as to whom the law was given?

And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.



There is a very present hearer of all men say.


Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?”
The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

 

[BanjoPicker]

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Meaning I have a will, but it is so overpowered by the lusts of sin that I am helpless. My passion is stronger than my reason. My will, reason, understanding, and my conscience are on God's side and consent to His will and law, but my slavemaster will not consent for me to serve God or His law.

Rom. 7:19 For the good that I would do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom.7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Meaning This is the law of the mind, which consents to the law of God (v 16,21, 23).

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Meaning This is the law of Moses v 1-16.

Rom. 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Meaning This is the law of sin (v 23, 25, 8:2). That law is stronger than the law of the mind, for it captures man regardless of the protest of the law of the mind (v 23, 25,). This victory is not occasional, but complete (v 24).

Rom. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Meaning This is not a picture of a redeemed soul, but of a captive of sin. Every statement in this chapter proves that this was Paul's experience while bound by sin under the law and before he was freed from the law of sin and death as in 8:14. His testimony indicates deliverance was after the 3 days of blindness at Damascus (Acts 9:17-18). The experience must have been during these 3 days for he had lived in all good conscience before this (Acts 23:11; Gal. 1:13-14; Phil. 3:6). In the new enlightened state of these 3 days, he saw that he had not really kept the law, saw that he was a helpless slave to sin and could not obey it as it should be kept. Hence his conclusion of wretchedness (v 24).
There is an allusion here to the ancient custom of tyrants, who bound a dead body to a living man, requiring him to carry it about until he died of contagion of the putrid mass.

Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God: but with the flesh the law with the sin.
Meaning This is a misplaced conclusion which has caused many false doctrines to be taught. It should follow v 23 as the conclusion of the whole argument. It is not only the logical conclusion, but it starts out with the Gr. ara oun, therefore. It means. "To conclude, the sum of what I have said," etc. Many have used these words to prove Paul, himself was not saved from sin. This would contradict all the arguments of Romans up to this point and what follows. He proves both before and after this that there is complete victory over the law of sin (1:16-18; 2:8-11; 3:5-8, 24-31; 4:1-24; 5:1-11; 6:1-23; 8:1-13).

 

[Israel]

yeah. He could only see this after conversion.

He had zero sense of it before. Zero.00

I'm persuaded he would have stood with this crowd before (not unlike myself)

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

And we know where that conversation ended up.

 

[BanjoPicker]

If men were da-mned only for rejecting Christ, then this would be the only sin they would have to face at the judgment; but this is not true. Men will give account of every idle word and every sin (Mt. 10:41-42; 12:36, 37; 16:27; Rom. 1:29-32; 2 Cor. 11:15; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12).

 

[Israel]

If men were da-mned only for rejecting Christ, then this would be the only sin they would have to face at the judgment; but this is not true. Men will give account of every idle word and every sin (Mt. 10:41-42; 12:36, 37; 16:27; Rom. 1:29-32; 2 Cor. 11:15; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12).

Did you know this once filled me with such fear and dread, I just had to speak to the Lord about it. I saw that not all idle words are immediately seen as idle. (Not working, i.e. idle)

In truth a man could even be so misled of himself to think even "wholesome" words were actually idle in the Lord's ears.

I saw myself as lost in judgment as to what is what...for if left to myself I could discover an ocean full of words waiting for me to testify against me...in a "someday" that unless, and only if, a someone were kind enough "along the way" to make them clear, I'd be overcome.

I asked.

And if one thinks therefore I hold or am making some claim to now in every way being free of folly, or idleness, God forbid, no. I saw an already full to overflowing ocean that, were it not for an intervention were already prepared to swallow me, I would continue in such folly that "perhaps sometimes" I am not as much in need of that grace as others.

 

[Artfuldodger]

If men were da-mned only for rejecting Christ, then this would be the only sin they would have to face at the judgment; but this is not true. Men will give account of every idle word and every sin (Mt. 10:41-42; 12:36, 37; 16:27; Rom. 1:29-32; 2 Cor. 11:15; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12).

An account yes, but will Christians be da-mned for every idle word and every sin?

 

[Madman]

Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

It's almost like the "which came first, the Chicken or the Egg" thing. But I do know that sin was in the world before the written Law of Moses.
Yet Paul is saying that we would not have known what sin was had it not been for the Law.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 3:20-21
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.

"The law shows us that no matter how good our intentions, we still end up in sin and in need of the deliverance available only through faith in Jesus."
That's the way I see it, The Law was to show us what sin was and to teach us that we never could keep it and therefore needed salvation in the form of a Messiah.
The whole Old Testament from what we now know from reading the New Testament shows us this.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 3:20-21
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.

Galatians 3:24-25
So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Israel]

Art, have you ever considered that, were we to make all the instructions in the gospels and epistles "into law" we would have a never ending supply of matters to both condemn ourselves (and when handy) lay upon the necks of others? (Although it is more often found reversed...a "first" inclination to look at our brothers for "meeting" the requirements) But! Fear not! It will always eventually work around to self!

"You/I are not "praying enough"! Aren't we "supposed to" pray without ceasing?

Oops! You/I are "taking thought for the morrow!" (I'm planning a birthday party for a little girl, you are talking about an upcoming vacation!)

Oh! And idle words! Who can't find sufficient hook there?

Planning dinner (take no thought for what you shall eat!)

Choosing what shirt you'll put on! (Take no thought for how you'll clothe yourself)

Hey, it doesn't look like either one of us is being "fully" thankful in and for all things! (Ever express a fear/doubt/worry?)

And oh yeah! That biggy "Fear not!", who is going to deny that they haven't had their head turned a time or two?

"Rejoice in the Lord always"...ever felt surly? Ever heard yourself or a brother...complain?

Oh, yes, we could go on and on and on, not to mention that thing we come up against in "faith" and believing.

"Be not faithless but believing!" Yikes! How many times have I found myself "what do I really believe?" Sure, it's easy to "say" this or that, but when the words "come back round" to home, what substance do I have to show what I have uttered is true in me? Any?

On sunny days and among friends it's so easy to say "all things are possible to him who believes" "here buddy, I got some "good" words for you!"


But when it feels like the wheels have come off and you are headed for what appears the cliff, and all you see is the crowd assembled cheering for a spectacular crash and burn that will leave you dead and humiliated, maybe then we find out what is really at "rock bottom" in us.

But of course, if left to this alone, we would all be in the trouble of self referencing, self appraisal, and self judgment... all just "self." But, even if, in all of this we discover someone/something working to turn us from that futility and exquisitely painful lesson of all that comes of self referencing...we might see an other.

In fact we might even come to know it has always been a "Him" working to deliver in a peculiar matter of what we learn we have absolutely no control over...what we believe.

Saved by the faith of an other.

This is the work of God that you believe upon Him whom He has sent.

Lord, I believe...help thou...


I believe (ha ha!) I am being persuaded God has a most wise and un-plumbably deep way of instructing in His grace...and to even the uncovering of where we might doubt (or not yet know) of its sufficiency.

Precisely so we can be instructed in how all sufficient grace is.

 

[gemcgrew]

That's the way I see it, The Law was to show us what sin was and to teach us that we never could keep it and therefore needed salvation in the form of a Messiah.
The whole Old Testament from what we now know from reading the New Testament shows us this.

Yes, and a man will spend his whole life telling men what they need to do to be saved, and he will spend his whole life never knowing how God saves a sinner.