The True Tragedy of the Orlando Terrorist Attack.

[Havana Dude]

I'm curious, had this been an airplane crash with 50 souls on board, no survivors, would they all go to he11 ? While I do not agree with homosexuality, the sins of those on that plane are no worse than those of the homosexual. You could argue that they continually engage in sinful behaviour ( unrepented sin), but don't we also? We're all guilty. What if one person on that plane was a strait up genuine heterosexual, with 2.3 kids, married, deacon of the church? Is he condemned to leave this world tragically like the other 49 sexual sinners?

 

[hummerpoo]

1 Cor. 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

I am unaware of any scriptural mitigation of this passage.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I think the bigger tragedy lies in the assumption originally stated.

Really?? I stand appalled!

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I rest my case. Attitudes like this are mostly what made me quit going to church, along with thousands of other folks. You can believe what you want, and think you are privy to God's mind and better than everyone else to the point of passing judgement on their lives, but you don't know what's in my heart or anyone else's, brother. There are plenty of folks of other denominations and religions who would firmly believe just as strongly that you are hades-bound for your beliefs and actions.

I don't agree with homosexuality any more than you do, but who knows what went on in those folks' hearts during this incident? Again, neither you nor I are qualified to pass judgement on them, even if you think you are. I'll leave God's business up to God.

It's not my choice to agree or disagree with homosexual ACTS. GOD says it's a sin period. He also says unrepentant sinners who die go to He11 period. Its a common sense and logical to conclude that those people who died were NOT repentant sinners else they would not have been there. Therefore if you believe what God says its logical to conclude they went to He11. Let's be clear. I am NOT pronouncing judgement as you continue to contend, only reaching a conclusion that is plainly evident.

What I find telling about this entire thread is it appears more people are indignant about a my "perceived judgement" of the dead than they are of the deads eternal destination. Even if I was actually passing judgement on them, and I'm not but if I was, to be more offended by that rather than horrified that they may spend eternity apart from God represents a warped view of All that Christ taught

 

[EverGreen1231]

Tragedy, by definition, is a bad event. That they are there is the result of God's judgement. Everything that God does is good, right, holy and just. So it is good that they are there.

I agree when put this way. I was speaking relative to myself. Were it not for the Lord's grace, I would be well on my way to meet them.

They are not the whosoever will. They are the whosoever won't.

Agreed, given, as you pointed out to me, the theological argument in the OP.

 

[EverGreen1231]

I rest my case. Attitudes like this are mostly what made me quit going to church, along with thousands of other folks. You can believe what you want, and think you are privy to God's mind and better than everyone else to the point of passing judgement on their lives, but you don't know what's in my heart or anyone else's, brother. There are plenty of folks of other denominations and religions who would firmly believe just as strongly that you are hades-bound for your beliefs and actions.

I am privy to God's mind. He's written it down. He's not made it secret.

I don't agree with homosexuality any more than you do, but who knows what went on in those folks' hearts during this incident? Again, neither you nor I are qualified to pass judgement on them, even if you think you are. I'll leave God's business up to God.

Truth. God asked us to play the game and He'd keep score.

There are plenty of folks of other denominations and religions who would firmly believe just as strongly that you are hades-bound for your beliefs and actions.

And unless they agree with The Lord, they are wrong.

 

[Havana Dude]

Are you at all concerned about the hundreds and thousands of people murdered in Chicago ( just one city) every year? These folks were likely engaged in sinful behaviour before they succumbed to their injury. Just curious at to why you pick the gay bar incident to discuss this. Also, what do you expect people to do with this information? You want everyone to feel guilty for not trying to lead these specific people to Christ? I'm sorry, but these are matters for God to tend to, not me. It is physically impossible to be a light to EVERYONE, so we are ALL GUILTY. Before you light into me, just remember, we've been pushing God to the back burner for a very long time. ALL OF US. Every second you or I sit on this computer arguing this scenario is time wasted. Virtually everything we do is time wasted as far as trying to lead others to Christ. We have pulled so far away, that most of relegate an hour or 2 on Sunday mornings to him, and even then, can't wait to get out so we can eat lunch. But we have no problem sitting 5-6 hours at a NASCAR race, or a football game. Most folks don't even bother going to church anymore because a MAN hurt their little feelings, and so now they don't want to associate with an entire body of people. Just an excuse if you ask me.

Going back to your original post. I just don't see how you can make such a blanket statement about those 49/50 people going to he11. How could you possibly know that ? Maybe 1 of those killed was in their witnessing to the lost souls. And I'm not one saying you are passing judgement. I'm simply saying you are making huge assumptions.

 

[NCHillbilly]

It's not my choice to agree or disagree with homosexual ACTS. GOD says it's a sin period. He also says unrepentant sinners who die go to He11 period. Its a common sense and logical to conclude that those people who died were NOT repentant sinners else they would not have been there. Therefore if you believe what God says its logical to conclude they went to He11. Let's be clear. I am NOT pronouncing judgement as you continue to contend, only reaching a conclusion that is plainly evident.

What I find telling about this entire thread is it appears more people are indignant about a my "perceived judgement" of the dead than they are of the deads eternal destination. Even if I was actually passing judgement on them, and I'm not but if I was, to be more offended by that rather than horrified that they may spend eternity apart from God represents a warped view of All that Christ taught

Throughout our world, there are many, many differing views of sin, morality, salvation, afterlife; and the will, identity, and instructions of God. Yours is one of them.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I hope we reserve the same judgment for unrepentant Christian gossipers, gluttons, yearly income tax swindlers, alcoholics, and Christians who lust daily.

How often must we repent? Daily, hourly? Does our salvation go in and out as we sin and repent?

Why not just repent from thinking we can live good enough to make the grade into believing Jesus died for our sins? Isn't that why we needed him(salvation) to start with.
If I could do it on my merits, I would have already did it.

 

[Miguel Cervantes]

Really?? I stand appalled!

No doubt.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

WOW!!! First of all, the last report I read was only 49. So who is the 50th pre-condemned by this sanctimonious blasphemy?

Second, just because I stand in a garage does not make me a car. Just because they were at a gay bar does not make them gay, nor does it mean they weren't a christian. To only go among the like minded isn't serving any justice to the world. You must go out among them, get to know them, and love them in order to witness to them.

Third, and most blatantly displayed in this thread. Just because you read the bible and go to a building full of like minded Pharisees each Sunday does not make you a Christian, but based on some of the responses in here, it does qualify you to one day hear the words; "I never knew you".

There were 50 as I understand it counting the shooter. I may be mistaken in that I haven't seen the news in a few days.

As far as "sanctimonious." If mourning the fact that 50 souls needlessly and in all probability went to He11 is sanctimonious then I guess I misunderstand the term.

As to your second and and third point, the second has already been addressed and the third is a red herring.

 

[Miguel Cervantes]

the third is a red herring.

And there it is, straight from the horses mouth. Matthew 7:23 is a red herring. How very interesting.

Salvation without fear or guilt, omnipotent immortality via a bulletproof God complex.

Good luck with that.

 

[RH Clark]

Really?? I stand appalled!

Very simple question. Do you think you are saved because you do not sin, or possibly because you sin less? Why are you judging your salvation on what you do?

If you don't judge your salvation based on your own actions, then why do you want to judge another's salvation based on their actions?


That's the big question.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I'm curious, had this been an airplane crash with 50 souls on board, no survivors, would they all go to he11 ? While I do not agree with homosexuality, the sins of those on that plane are no worse than those of the homosexual. You could argue that they continually engage in sinful behaviour ( unrepented sin), but don't we also?

Apples and oranges

You are comparing unrepentant sinners to redeamed sinners who WHILE WE STILL SIN, SHOULD NOT ACTIVELY PURSUE IT. QUIET THE CONTRARY, A REDEEMED SINNER SHOULD NOT ONLY AVOID SIN BUT REPENT AND SEEK FORGIVENESS WHEN COMVICTED OF IT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO DWELLS WITHIN EACH SAVED PERSON

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Are you at all concerned about the hundreds and thousands of people murdered in Chicago ( just one city) every year? These folks were likely engaged in sinful behaviour before they succumbed to their injury. Just curious at to why you pick the gay bar incident to discuss this. Also, what do you expect people to do with this information? You want everyone to feel guilty for not trying to lead these specific people to Christ? I'm sorry, but these are matters for God to tend to, not me. It is physically impossible to be a light to EVERYONE, so we are ALL GUILTY. Before you light into me, just remember, we've been pushing God to the back burner for a very long time. ALL OF US. Every second you or I sit on this computer arguing this scenario is time wasted. Virtually everything we do is time wasted as far as trying to lead others to Christ. We have pulled so far away, that most of relegate an hour or 2 on Sunday mornings to him, and even then, can't wait to get out so we can eat lunch. But we have no problem sitting 5-6 hours at a NASCAR race, or a football game. Most folks don't even bother going to church anymore because a MAN hurt their little feelings, and so now they don't want to associate with an entire body of people. Just an excuse if you ask me.

Going back to your original post. I just don't see how you can make such a blanket statement about those 49/50 people going to he11. How could you possibly know that ? Maybe 1 of those killed was in their witnessing to the lost souls. And I'm not one saying you are passing judgement. I'm simply saying you are making huge assumptions.

Yes I am just as concerned about anyone who dies lost. That was the entire point of the OP. It's a tragedy anytime any, just one, are lost. And while Gem is correct when he states God is just in sending ANY lost to He11, because it's a justice mandated by their choices while ALIVE. Christ came so that all could be saved an none perish and that is something that each of us can have a bearing on, are called to and even mandated to have a bearing on, but it seems to me that we Christians have the attitude that once we are pulled from the fire we could care less about those still inside and we should be ashamed.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Throughout our world, there are many, many differing views of sin, morality, salvation, afterlife; and the will, identity, and instructions of God. Yours is one of them.

You are correct, but Truth my friend, is exclusive. There's a lot of school buses at the schoolhouse but only one takes you home. Make sure to out get on the right one. Jesus said I am the Way, the TRUTH and the ..... No other person has ever made that claim. Why?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

And there it is, straight from the horses mouth. Matthew 7:23 is a red herring. How very interesting.

Salvation without fear or guilt, omnipotent immortality via a bulletproof God complex.

Good luck with that.

 

[welderguy]

Yes I am just as concerned about anyone who dies lost. That was the entire point of the OP. It's a tragedy anytime any, just one, are lost. And while Gem is correct when he states God is just in sending ANY lost to He11, because it's a justice mandated by their choices while ALIVE. Christ came so that all could be saved an none perish and that is something that each of us can have a bearing on, are called to and even mandated to have a bearing on, but it seems to me that we Christians have the attitude that once we are pulled from the fire we could care less about those still inside and we should be ashamed.

So...now salvation is in man's hands??

Then we're all doomed.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Very simple question. Do you think you are saved because you do not sin, or possibly because you sin less? Why are you judging your salvation on what you do?

If you don't judge your salvation based on your own actions, then why do you want to judge another's salvation based on their actions?


That's the big question.

Very simple answer. I am save by the atonement of Christ becoming a propitiation for me and my sins.

To your question. I don't judge another's salvation based on their actions. I look at their actions and conclude that they are PROBABLY not saved because their actions are not the actions someone saved would engage in. I act, think and conduct myself almost totally opposite of that of when I was unsaved. I think if you are saved there should be evidence of it. Do you agree and if you do then tell me how you can't see sin and fail to call it sin. And if you do see sin and recognize it as sin, how do you NOT conclude that those engaging it are most likely not saved?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

So...now salvation is in man's hands??

Then we're all doomed.

Did I say that?