Yet another panther thread.

redneck_billcollector

Purveyor Of Fine Spirits
I read the other day where a petition was presented to the Feds about establishing another Florida panther population in the area in north Florida where the two feasability studies (which have been discussed in this forum before) took place. If that takes place I imagine that there will be a spike in south Georgia panther sightings. When those studies were done, a number of the pathers dispersed throughout south Georgia. One ended up over near Cairo and on down into Seminole county (in one of the more intensely farmed areas in the state). Another one ended up on Ft. Stewart and was eventually captured on over towards Augusta. And yet one more ended up in the Chattahoochee Valley just south of Columbus.

The study group was supposed to be made up of sterile individuals, and yet one or two of the females had litters. I assume that any translocations of Florida panthers will be fertile individuals, assuming they are successful at breeding we would be seeing panthers on a regular basis (the generic we of course). With deer at or near carrying capacity in most of south Georgia and a growing wild hog population the panthers should do rather well here.

Once the population gets established we know that it won't be long before they start colonizing areas west of the A.C.F. (appalachicola, chattahoochee, flint) drainage. Once that happens it won't be too long before the cougars moving out of Texas start running into those moving west out of Florida....once that happens we may be able (at least my son or his children) to hunt lions in south Ga. It did not take long after establishing a population of wolves in the Rockies before they were delisted and limited hunting was allowed.....They responded well to a large prey base, which is what we have for the first time in over 100 years in the southeastern US.

I think that any studies done in the future about the demise of the panther population in the south will have to take into account the collapse of the prey base population that had occurred by the early 20th century and did not really start to improve until the late 70s. ( I remember when seeing a deer track when hunting for deer was a big to do down in my neck of the woods as a kid in the early 70s). The same can probably be said about the red wolf population in the south east.

It is my opinion that the populations of the two apex predators in the south east were largely exterpitated because of the collapse of the deer populations more than anything else, no food means no successful breeding amongst predators. The reason the panthers held out in southwest Florida was because no one lived there and there is a good wild hog population (makes up a large part of their diet), the same could be possibly said about any reminant red wolf population in SOWEGA (the disscussion on the other thread) because the chickasawhatchee swamp had a hog population and the first big "wolf like" SOWEGA yotes started showing up near the chickasawhatchee creek basin when deer started making a strong comeback in SOWEGA (the last area in Georgia to experience establishment of strong deer populations).

It is simple biology, predators respond possitively to healthy prey populations until a balance is reached in the ecosystem. I think even with the altered landscape that will happen. Cougars out in California, Texas, Washington and Colorado have shown an ability to adapt to that altered landscape, I see no reason for them not to here. One of the reasons the relocation of red wolves in the Smokey Mountains N.P. (the main reason in my opinion) was not sucsessful was there aren't many deer in the areas that it was attempted (Cades' Cove has the largest deer population in the Park and the wolves were nowhere near there). Without a healthy food supply, the wolves became stressed and many succumed to disease along with very low recruitment through new births. It only took one mast crop failure coupled with bear predation on fawns to hurt the prey base population and the wolves went hungry.
 
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redneck_billcollector

Purveyor Of Fine Spirits
I just read that the Feds rejected the petition a little while back saying they want to work on habitat for the s.w.fla population instead of moving any of them.
 

pilot teacher

Senior Member
We need to work on getting the Feds out of the wildlife business. They have done more to to curtail and confound hunting everywhere as well as all Feds infesting every aspect of our lives.:stir:
 

redneck_billcollector

Purveyor Of Fine Spirits
We need to work on getting the Feds out of the wildlife business. They have done more to to curtail and confound hunting everywhere as well as all Feds infesting every aspect of our lives.:stir:

I agree with most all of your statement, with one big HOWEVER, the US is unique from europe (I noticed your sig line) in that the wildlife belongs to the people as opposed to a king, queen or any other private individual. With that being the case you have to let them in to manage wildlife in some way. Without their intervention in waterfowl management, we wouldn't have the waterfowl to hunt today. Without the federal land, alot of people who aren't landed or without the monetary means to lease land would have no chance to hunt at all. Those are some of the good that comes with the bad, it is unavoidable to have some bad with a bureaucracy, the trick is to try to limit that bad.
 

NCHillbilly

Administrator
Staff member
I read the other day where a petition was presented to the Feds about establishing another Florida panther population in the area in north Florida where the two feasability studies (which have been discussed in this forum before) took place. If that takes place I imagine that there will be a spike in south Georgia panther sightings. When those studies were done, a number of the pathers dispersed throughout south Georgia. One ended up over near Cairo and on down into Seminole county (in one of the more intensely farmed areas in the state). Another one ended up on Ft. Stewart and was eventually captured on over towards Augusta. And yet one more ended up in the Chattahoochee Valley just south of Columbus.

The study group was supposed to be made up of sterile individuals, and yet one or two of the females had litters. I assume that any translocations of Florida panthers will be fertile individuals, assuming they are successful at breeding we would be seeing panthers on a regular basis (the generic we of course). With deer at or near carrying capacity in most of south Georgia and a growing wild hog population the panthers should do rather well here.

Once the population gets established we know that it won't be long before they start colonizing areas west of the A.C.F. (appalachicola, chattahoochee, flint) drainage. Once that happens it won't be too long before the cougars moving out of Texas start running into those moving west out of Florida....once that happens we may be able (at least my son or his children) to hunt lions in south Ga. It did not take long after establishing a population of wolves in the Rockies before they were delisted and limited hunting was allowed.....They responded well to a large prey base, which is what we have for the first time in over 100 years in the southeastern US.

I think that any studies done in the future about the demise of the panther population in the south will have to take into account the collapse of the prey base population that had occurred by the early 20th century and did not really start to improve until the late 70s. ( I remember when seeing a deer track when hunting for deer was a big to do down in my neck of the woods as a kid in the early 70s). The same can probably be said about the red wolf population in the south east.

It is my opinion that the populations of the two apex predators in the south east were largely exterpitated because of the collapse of the deer populations more than anything else, no food means no successful breeding amongst predators. The reason the panthers held out in southwest Florida was because no one lived there and there is a good wild hog population (makes up a large part of their diet), the same could be possibly said about any reminant red wolf population in SOWEGA (the disscussion on the other thread) because the chickasawhatchee swamp had a hog population and the first big "wolf like" SOWEGA yotes started showing up near the chickasawhatchee creek basin when deer started making a strong comeback in SOWEGA (the last area in Georgia to experience establishment of strong deer populations).

It is simple biology, predators respond possitively to healthy prey populations until a balance is reached in the ecosystem. I think even with the altered landscape that will happen. Cougars out in California, Texas, Washington and Colorado have shown an ability to adapt to that altered landscape, I see no reason for them not to here. One of the reasons the relocation of red wolves in the Smokey Mountains N.P. (the main reason in my opinion) was not sucsessful was there aren't many deer in the areas that it was attempted (Cades' Cove has the largest deer population in the Park and the wolves were nowhere near there). Without a healthy food supply, the wolves became stressed and many succumed to disease along with very low recruitment through new births. It only took one mast crop failure coupled with bear predation on fawns to hurt the prey base population and the wolves went hungry.

Actually, Cade's Cove was where the wolves were released and based. The reason the experiment failed, according to the gubment, is that (a) the wolves didn't understand the concept of property lines and wouldn't stay in the park, and (b) high mortality rates on the pups. IMO, I think they studied and monitered them to death. Coyotes are not that different from the red wolves, and they thrive in the area, plenty to eat. But every time the wolves denned and had pups, the biologists immediately went and dug them out, weighed, measured, poked and prodded at them and did God knows what else to them. Wild animals don't care much for their young being messed with, and many pups may have simply been abandoned after being handled by people.
 

redneck_billcollector

Purveyor Of Fine Spirits
Actually, Cade's Cove was where the wolves were released and based. The reason the experiment failed, according to the gubment, is that (a) the wolves didn't understand the concept of property lines and wouldn't stay in the park, and (b) high mortality rates on the pups. IMO, I think they studied and monitered them to death. Coyotes are not that different from the red wolves, and they thrive in the area, plenty to eat. But every time the wolves denned and had pups, the biologists immediately went and dug them out, weighed, measured, poked and prodded at them and did God knows what else to them. Wild animals don't care much for their young being messed with, and many pups may have simply been abandoned after being handled by people.

I was basing that on one of the studies I read about the effort at restocking them there (low prey base). One December night I about hit a couple of the wolves walking down the middle of the road on the NC side of the park just before Newfound Gap (way on up in the mountians, which I thought was strange, cause I have never seen a deer that high up in the conifer section of the park) when I was traveling from Cherokee to Gatlinburg. The wolves were just trotting down the middle of the road without a care in the world and stayed there for about 5 or 6 minutes. I did not realize Cades Cove is where they were released, I would have thought they would have done it somewhere that did not have so many people visiting.
 

NCHillbilly

Administrator
Staff member
Parvo virus was what killed most of the pups. They were very suseptible to the disease.

Yeah, that was the official word. It sure don't seem to affect our thousands of coyote puppies in the same area, though :huh:
 
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