Zephaniah's prophecy.

[gordon 2]

I must say the line does get very crooked. Perhaps as Hobbs suggests, we are trying to connect a past event to a future event.

We are trying to make out how we will see Jesus as he is when he returns and yet see him in Heaven when we die before the return. All of this when maybe John meant when he returned in 70AD.
Both beliefs leave many questions unanswered.

For moi there are few questions.

Now we don't see Him ( God) as He is because we can't. And we can't because we are still afflicted, harassed and troubled by a world of sin and sorry.

Adam before the fall does not seem to be afflicted with this suffering, therefore Adam ( and Eve) walked and talked and had friendship with God and saw God as God was because they were not impaired. But after the fall they changed. God did not change. But they changed. The very first thing they did is to "cover' themselves with new strange things! And we still cover ourselves with strange things, even saints!

What the second coming will bring about is a riddance of our impairments so that we also like Adam and Eve before the fall will see, will meet with, will walk with God as He is. Zephaniah says God will sing to us! We will be souls in the way we were ever meant to be and for the purpose(s) we were created.

It is not God that will have changed, it is you and I and this change is a physical one at this point. Now Adam and Eve saw God as He was as souls, that is with physicality and spirituality. Why would it be different for us, especially that Jesus was physically raised from the dead and all the apostles claim that this is the way we are headed? What other hope is there? We have been at this point been born again spiritually, we have been grafted on the tree of belief into the faith, some of us walk spiritually in the Holy Spirit, in Christ if we are Christians. So did the apostles! So what else are they waiting for Christ to return for it's own sake which would be the case if he had returned 70 ad? No. They hoped for the resurrection of their mortal bodies to immortal ones due Christ's second coming along with the promised New Jerusalem. And 70 ad just ain't cutting it in this department or their hope was in vain maybe? And Christianity is in fact a foolishness?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I think I can understand and see everything about mortal bodies to immortal ones on the earth in the New Jerusalem. I can see and understand it all except going to Heaven before then. That's where it gets cloudy. Everything scriptural reads like nothing happens until Jesus comes.
Now if we waited somewhere other than Heaven, then it makes sense. Seeing Jesus before then doesn't. It makes everything go from life to death to spiritual life in Heaven and then back to the earth for a new physical life in a glorified body.

This back and forth is the cloudy part. Going from physical to spiritual only to return to some physical form.

Then again, Jesus went from Spiritual to physical, back to Spiritual, and once again will come back physical. Then maybe back once more to Spiritual.

 

[gordon 2]

I think I can understand and see everything about mortal bodies to immortal ones on the earth in the New Jerusalem. I can see and understand it all except going to Heaven before then. That's where it gets cloudy. Everything scriptural reads like nothing happens until Jesus comes.
Now if we waited somewhere other than Heaven, then it makes sense. Seeing Jesus before then doesn't. It makes everything go from life to death to spiritual life in Heaven and then back to the earth for a new physical life in a glorified body.

This back and forth is the cloudy part. Going from physical to spiritual only to return to some physical form.

Then again, Jesus went from Spiritual to physical, back to Spiritual, and once again will come back physical. Then maybe back once more to Spiritual.

It's the mirror art, the mirror. It is still cloudy. My hope is that the second coming will polish out the hubbles from it-- if we need a mirror at all.

 

[hobbs27]

Max King once said, " You can drive a horse to water but you can't make him drink, especially if it's muddied."

The water of life is freely given but there's a few things out there today that's muddying up the Gospel.

 

[welderguy]

I think I can understand and see everything about mortal bodies to immortal ones on the earth in the New Jerusalem. I can see and understand it all except going to Heaven before then. That's where it gets cloudy. Everything scriptural reads like nothing happens until Jesus comes.
Now if we waited somewhere other than Heaven, then it makes sense. Seeing Jesus before then doesn't. It makes everything go from life to death to spiritual life in Heaven and then back to the earth for a new physical life in a glorified body.

This back and forth is the cloudy part. Going from physical to spiritual only to return to some physical form.

Then again, Jesus went from Spiritual to physical, back to Spiritual, and once again will come back physical. Then maybe back once more to Spiritual.

Is there anything in the scripture that you fellas can think of that would contradict this? :

I have this theory that ,immediately upon death, we are face to face with God in our glorified body. Time is no more, so everything that was bound by time is over and done with. We see him, with these eyes(only glorified now). And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If I'm off-base in any way, please, set me straight.

 

[hobbs27]

Is there anything in the scripture that you fellas can think of that would contradict this? :

I have this theory that ,immediately upon death, we are face to face with God in our glorified body. Time is no more, so everything that was bound by time is over and done with. We see him, with these eyes(only glorified now). And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If I'm off-base in any way, please, set me straight.

We Agree! Only...these eyes are not glorified.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Is there anything in the scripture that you fellas can think of that would contradict this? :

I have this theory that ,immediately upon death, we are face to face with God in our glorified body. Time is no more, so everything that was bound by time is over and done with. We see him, with these eyes(only glorified now). And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If I'm off-base in any way, please, set me straight.

That would explain a lot. Judgement day not being a future day. Well really it is but I see what you are saying. Everything future will become past once we die as individuals. We would just zoom past the future in a beyond time way to the end. We would face judgement when we die as individuals. We would see Jesus as he is. I'll do anything not to have to come back to the earth.

 

[hobbs27]

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[gordon 2]

Is there anything in the scripture that you fellas can think of that would contradict this? :

I have this theory that ,immediately upon death, we are face to face with God in our glorified body. Time is no more, so everything that was bound by time is over and done with. We see him, with these eyes(only glorified now). And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If I'm off-base in any way, please, set me straight.

I have no scripture at present.

But to my mind time is still present in our current heaven according to my memory of accounts of it in scripture.... That is time is sensible to the saints there as we know time. And that there although their worship is exceedingly happy, they are not 100% happy... as they beg and petition seeing yet need for charity where there might be none ?

But scripture says that there will be a new heaven and perhaps at this one our time will be no more, nor our present heaven because...

does not scripture read that a new heaven and a new earth will come to be and that in it a New Jerusalem and the light there with be Him? Definitely this new heaven seems to be timeless as there will be no night or perhaps other than a day or some other object we now account for night and day as a source of time measurement.


I am seeking scripture... regards the face of God.

In any case it occurs to me that what we call natural is not natural at all, that is the world we live in now, and that the heaven we know now is heaven supernatural... that is, still bound to the our preoccupations. But our natural home is to the new heaven that will come down to a new earth for the Second Coming.

But perhaps you recall this:


Revelations 7 ; 13 And now one of the elders turned to me, and asked, Who are they, and whence do they come, these who are robed in white? 14My Lord, said I, thou canst tell me. These, he said, have come here out of the great affliction; they have washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 And now they stand before God’s throne, serving him day and night in his temple; the presence of him who sits on the throne shall overshadow them. 16 They will not be hungry or thirsty any more; no sun, no noonday heat, shall fall across their path. 17 The Lamb, who dwells where the throne is, will be their shepherd, leading them out to the springs whose water is life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

And this would indicate that angels from heaven appear at the last harvest. And to my knowledge this would be before the new heaven.


Revelations 14 : 14Then, in my vision, a white cloud appeared; and on this cloud sat one who seemed like a son of man, with a crown of gold on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And now, from the temple, came another angel, crying out to him who sat on the cloud, Put in thy sickle, and reap; the crop of earth is dry, and the time has come to reap it. 16 So he who sat on the cloud put in his sickle, and earth’s harvest was reaped. 17 Then another angel came from the heavenly temple; he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And from the altar came another angel, the same that had power over the fire on it,[3] and cried aloud to the angel with the sharp sickle, Put in thy sharp sickle, and gather the grapes from earth’s vineyard; its clusters are ripe.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What are some other verses that point to this departure from our bodies and go to the Lord in spirit form?
I was thinking of:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord.7For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:20-23
20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have complete boldness, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23 I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed.

2 Timothy 4:6
For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.


It sounds like a spiritual departure to me.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Getting back to Welderguy's thoughts, I can see this except for the "already being in a resurrected body part." When we die we are no longer held in time because we are then in God's spiritual world.

It would appear that we'd have to re-enter time if resurrected physically. We'd have to leave God's spiritual world with Jesus and return to the earth. I think at that departure time would start back again for us.

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Thessalonians 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning
them which are asleep, [dead] that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent[precede] them which are asleep. [dead]
4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This makes it sound like one has to wait in the ground before he can ever be with the Lord.

 

[hobbs27]

Art... They slept but were not dead. Those were the Christian brothers of the Thessalonians that had received eternal life before His coming. They slept in the grave awaiting.

In a scenario that Jesus did not keep His word, and has not come... Then they and all Christians are still sleeping in the grave. Physically dead, spiritually alive.

 

[gordon 2]

Art... They slept but were not dead. Those were the Christian brothers of the Thessalonians that had received eternal life before His coming. They slept in the grave awaiting.

In a scenario that Jesus did not keep His word, and has not come... Then they and all Christians are still sleeping in the grave. Physically dead, spiritually alive.

So they were not dead but their bodies had suffered decay. Where did they go to sleep that they were not dead in the spirit or sleeping souls?

The heaven that Jesus prepared for them... is it the same one said the " new heaven" of the " last time"?

 

[gordon 2]

Max King once said, " You can drive a horse to water but you can't make him drink, especially if it's muddied."

The water of life is freely given but there's a few things out there today that's muddying up the Gospel.

Your kidding right?

 

[welderguy]

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In my theory, the dead physical body is still bound by time, thus it decays in the grave. But the spirit, which goes immediately into eternity(no time), is reunited so fast(in the twinkling of an eye) with a changed body, "fashioned like unto His glorious body"...in the air.

It will all happen in an instant, because of the timelessness.

2 Cor. 5:8-10

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I don't read this chapter as saying we will be without a body, but rather a different form of a body ("clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:")

 

[hobbs27]

So they were not dead but their bodies had suffered decay. Where did they go to sleep that they were not dead in the spirit or sleeping souls?

The heaven that Jesus prepared for them... is it the same one said the " new heaven" of the " last time"?

The wages of sin is death. With the blood of Christ covering that sin they could not know death.

The grave...Sheol/ Hades was only necessary for those that died with the charges of sin still against them. There was no blood to cover them. They were still spiritually dead, unable to be in the presence of God, because of this imputed sin.

Those that physically died in Christ were said to be sleeping... They were awaiting His coming that they be present at the wedding and joined together with the living in Spirit as one body.

 

[hobbs27]

I don't read this chapter as saying we will be without a body, but rather a different form of a body ("clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:")

I can accept per scripture a different form of body. I cannot accept per scripture that we will be in this physical, fleshly, earthly body.

 

[gordon 2]

In my theory, the dead physical body is still bound by time, thus it decays in the grave. But the spirit, which goes immediately into eternity(no time), is reunited so fast(in the twinkling of an eye) with a changed body, "fashioned like unto His glorious body"...in the air.

It will all happen in an instant, because of the timelessness.

2 Cor. 5:8-10

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I don't read this chapter as saying we will be without a body, but rather a different form of a body ("clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:")

You have many sources for ideas for your "theory". They are all interesting. My focus now goes to "clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" said in opposition to the clothes of our present house right now... and that it is perhaps a way of saying in heaven, in paradise, souls move on more fully in the heavenly not being bound to the earth where they move on in the heavenly only partially.

I think that the "different form of body" in heaven here might be the reality of the soul simply and not a different kind of body. This begs the observation that the soul is eternal if my view is correct, since it is clothed by both the defective materials of a fallen life and a heavenly life. That is to say death does not coffin the soul to decay.

But is the soul alone absent from the body a resurrected body, a glorified body? Perhaps it can be. In the present heaven it is released from the corruptions of the flesh at least. But is this a resurrection?

If the soul is subjected to the judgement seat for things done in the body on earth then it must not be a glorified and resurrected entity of itself due simply for being absent from the body? But I'm not sure this is what Paul is meaning. But if it is the case that it is not a glorified body in heaven since it is there in need of judgement, then surely it begs a body resurrection of that which was corrupted to die to that which would rise up to life. And since the soul is both living on earth and in heaven, the resurrection must be of the earthly body and not the soul's? Maybe.

 

[welderguy]

I can accept per scripture a different form of body. I cannot accept per scripture that we will be in this physical, fleshly, earthly body.

I believe it will be this body that has been changed instantaneously (metamorphed) into a glorified sinless, incorruptible body.