Heavy FOC / Single Bevel Broadhead

[Ben1100Mag]

I shoot thru the spine of a 3.5 year old buck in Kansas this year and cut it into. the arrow was a 2219 Aluminum with a 170 Zwickey No mercy Head. The buck was at 8 yards but down hill of me and I hit he spine by accident. Knocked him clean off his feet and it was lights out.

This year I an going to a Higher FOC with the same Head. These 4 blade Zwickies are cheap and durable.

 

[Long Cut]

I’ve been using the OT2GO arrow spine calculator that can be purchased online or for your phones through the App Store.
Then by plugging in the information to an online ballistic arrow calculator, this determines different arrow drop.

The two screenshots are comparing the ballistics of a 28.5” 65# Elite Option 7 (7”BH 32”ATA)

Arrow 1: is 558 grains going 244FPS
Arrow 2: 418 grains at 279FPS

Arrow ballistics below.

Summary: 100+ grains increased arrow drop by 3” at 30 yards and 6” at 30 yards.

 

[Kris87]

That arrow ballistic chart is really only good at proving no one is actually shooting one pin out to 40 yds. Heck, even 30 for that matter.

I will say, the last time I actually shot my bow through a chronograph at 20 yds, it lost more speed than what that chart is showing. Drag is obviously different on something with a lot of helical. Just pointing that out.

 

[GrantC77]

Easton axis match grade+50 grain brass insert+125 grain ramcat=death. All you need.

 

[Long Cut]

That arrow ballistic chart is really only good at proving no one is actually shooting one pin out to 40 yds. Heck, even 30 for that matter.

I will say, the last time I actually shot my bow through a chronograph at 20 yds, it lost more speed than what that chart is showing. Drag is obviously different on something with a lot of helical. Just pointing that out.

Lol amen to that. Lotta folks like talking on forums...

There’s different options for types of fletching, helical or straight etc. I will say, I plugged in my current arrow specs and it was dead on with what the chrono showed. Granted that was point blank, never tried past 10 yards.

Obviously these calculators are not an “end all be all” but definitely give us a good reference point to hopefully save some money.

 

[dtala]

I have shot heavy arrows for at least 20 years. 160gr STOS heads, 40 gr adapter=200gr head. 100gr brass arrow insert, total arrow weight is 570 gr. Don't remember the FOC but it is high. Fly like a dart, penetrate thru both shields on a big boar. Shot at 260fps out of a Hoyt.

I shoot the same arrow out of a 57# Dwyer longbow.

 

[hancock husler]

Got these in today

 

[BornToHuntAndFish]

Got these in today

Congrats on getting your new single bevel broadheads. To make your image easier & quicker to view, I embedded it above. Since I was not sure what was in the box, I did some web research & added the 2nd image above which looks like it's probably what's in your "SAF R125" box. Nothing cheap about those.

GrizzlyStik has some good charts at the web link below showing samples of different arrow build or combination specs (insert/head grains, total weight, FOC, length) for different bow poundage ranges which we can use to go to our favorite arrow & broadhead manufacturers to select what we prefer.

I noticed GrizzlyStik also has Dr. Ed Ashby's Reports on their website which I'll include the web link below along with the other alternative to the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation web link to the same helpful Reports & I'll post a sample top report with a few quote samples.



https://www.grizzlystik.com/Charts-W36.aspx

GrizzlyStik Charts

handy charts listing all the different Momentum TDT total arrow weight combinations (at length) matched with all six GrizzlyStik broadhead weights and their corresponding arrow FOC percentages

AND


https://www.grizzlystik.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-Reports.aspx

Dr. Ed Ashby Reports

NEW 2019 UPDATE - Ashby's Top 12 Arrow Penetration Enhancing Factors

or

https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports

Dr. Ed Ashby's Published
Arrow & Broadhead Penetration Research

Ashby Reports

12 Arrow Penetration Enhancing Factors (PDF) (Start here with audio above)

On Page 3 of the report document below:

3. The Arrow’s Weight Forward of Center (FOC)

Extreme or Ultra-Extreme FOC (EFOC and Ultra-EFOC)

Ultra-EFOC is Study-defines as above 30%

EFOC is defined as 19% to 30% FOC

first measurable tissue-penetration gains due to FOC are manifest at the EFOC level (19%), with penetration gain continuing to increase as FOC increases

In fresh and living tissues, all EFOC and Ultra-EFOC tests show very, very high penetration gain over arrows having normal FOC (12% and less)

high FOC (from 12% up through 18%)

of FOC (24% to 30-plus %) have yielded a very high percentage of complete passthrough hits on Cape and Asian buffalo … and even a few instances of complete passthroughs on elephant and hippo

preponderance of actual complete-passthrough hunting shots on buffalo have occurred with compound bows having draw-weights from 65 to 70 pounds

And, at the end of the report document on the bottom of Page 8 below:

No Arrow is a Bone Breaker?

Some contend that no arrow is a bone breaker. That’s incorrect.

single rib on a typical mature Asian buffalo bull is thicker than the scapular flat of a moose, elk, zebra or eland. A buffalo rib not only presents a more curved surface to the arrow's impact, it’s tucked behind 3” to 5” of meat and sinew that’s shielded by 1" thick, tire-tread tough skin

650 grains demonstrated a 100% bone-breaching rate on Asian buffalo for 196 consecutive shots, with almost one in every five of those shots being taken with a 40# Bear Formula Silver recurve bow

bone-breaching rate and terminal arrow performance for structurally secure, penetration-enhanced EFOC arrows having a weight above the Heavy Bone Threshold (650 grains)

AND


https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/getting-started

Getting Started

Based on decades of research, an arrow/broadhead combination that weighs at least 650 grains and has Forward of Center (FOC) advantage, with great shot placement, will be lethal

chart below shows the recommended total arrow and broadhead weights for reliable lethality on specific categories of game animals

note that arrow weights below 650 grains will not give reliable penetration when heavy bone is encountered

When arrows + broadheads are 650 grains and up, and follow the 12 penetration enhancing factors, they can be counted on to breach heavy bone.

Top 12 Arrow Penetration Enhancing Factors

OR


https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/results

Results From the Field

MEDIUM GAME: CHART MINIMUM 400 GRAIN TOTAL ARROW WEIGHT. ABF RECOMMENDS 650 GRAINS, 20%+ FOC, CUT ON CONTACT OR SINGLE BEVEL HEAD.

commonly hunted whitetail

 

[oldguy]

Wonder what the Native Americans thought about FOC?

 

[splatek]

@BornToHuntAndFish great stuff. I have read everything on the foundation site. Hard to argue with science, which many will say is bologna because it was one man doing case studies. However, the good stuff about the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation is that their mission is more science. The foundation is relatively new, but It sounds to me like their mission is to demonstrate convincingly how to effectively knock down game with arrows. I am not sure how they plan to do their science, but I will be eagerly reading along.

@oldguy I was reading an anthropology/archeology report on stone tools and a paper came up on native american bows. They suggested that arrowheads were somewhere slightly below 1 ounce. According to a quick google metric conversion program, 1 ounce weights approximately 425 grains; .5 ounces weighs just a little over 200 grains. I have not seen (nor have I looked) for a report/paper that actually measured (a) weight of broadheads and/or (b) FOC among archeologically discovered arrows. The ashby foundation has some data on some African tribe arrows and FOCs are all pretty high, if my memory serves me well. Sorry I don't have more data to report. Every so often someone on the forum finds an old broadhead, next time that happens I might recommend they weigh it...

 

[ninjaneer]

Pretty interesting stuff. I had no idea about the single bevel and its advantages.

 

[BornToHuntAndFish]

@BornToHuntAndFish great stuff. I have read everything on the foundation site. Hard to argue with science, which many will say is bologna because it was one man doing case studies. However, the good stuff about the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation is that their mission is more science. The foundation is relatively new, but It sounds to me like their mission is to demonstrate convincingly how to effectively knock down game with arrows. I am not sure how they plan to do their science, but I will be eagerly reading along.

Yep. Nice having the foundation or ABF doing fine work that benefits the bowhunting community for lots of years with scientific results of more effective ways to bag wild game while helping to lower potential of losing wild game. Tough for many of us to resist fast, flatter shooting bows with lighter arrows.

 

[hancock husler]

Wonder what the Native Americans thought about FOC?

They made a lot of points and probably had their own science behind it.

 

[hancock husler]

Big rock - no tracking burnt buffalo

 

[hancock husler]

I have tried many set ups on my bows, looking at something new to pass time till opening day. I hunt in Kansas and those are big bodied deer, and wanting to push the envelope a little. The way I see it I’m going old school if it works and I’m good with that.

 

[oldguy]

@BornToHuntAndFish great stuff. I have read everything on the foundation site. Hard to argue with science, which many will say is bologna because it was one man doing case studies. However, the good stuff about the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation is that their mission is more science. The foundation is relatively new, but It sounds to me like their mission is to demonstrate convincingly how to effectively knock down game with arrows. I am not sure how they plan to do their science, but I will be eagerly reading along.

@oldguy I was reading an anthropology/archeology report on stone tools and a paper came up on native american bows. They suggested that arrowheads were somewhere slightly below 1 ounce. According to a quick google metric conversion program, 1 ounce weights approximately 425 grains; .5 ounces weighs just a little over 200 grains. I have not seen (nor have I looked) for a report/paper that actually measured (a) weight of broadheads and/or (b) FOC among archeologically discovered arrows. The ashby foundation has some data on some African tribe arrows and FOCs are all pretty high, if my memory serves me well. Sorry I don't have more data to report. Every so often someone on the forum finds an old broadhead, next time that happens I might recommend they weigh it...

I bet Ryan Gill has something to say about it. He's big primative guy and focuses on detail. I'm not knocking the science, I've read Ashbys stuff and I'm on board. I'm currently using Simmons Tree Shark. But there are SO many cool looking other BH it's tempting to try some others. This is only my third year at trad archery. Hopefully I'll get several more to experiment with!

 

[Ihunt]

I shoot high FOC arrows. Never seen a negative so why not.

But, I do believe all if not most of his studies were done with traditional bows. That is the main and possibly only reason the he saw such awesome results with his FOC arrows. It’s archers paradox ( if I remember correctly) and it’s something that doesn’t plague compound shooters.

Again, not saying it doesn’t help as I build them but doubt we get the benefits he talks about.

If you really want to improve penetration up your arrow weight. A heavier arrow tipped with a “real” broadhead should not have any issues with passthroughs on deer sized critters.

 

[Hillbilly stalker]

I’ve killed a truck load back in the day with a 31 inch 2219, 145 grain wasp and a old Hoyt wheel bow with a huge brace height....I’m thinking 14-16 inches. Silent and deadly. It really lobbed an arrow, but you couldn’t miss at 20 or less.

 

[Hillbilly stalker]

I bet Ryan Gill has something to say about it. He's big primative guy and focuses on detail. I'm not knocking the science, I've read Ashbys stuff and I'm on board. I'm currently using Simmons Tree Shark. But there are SO many cool looking other BH it's tempting to try some others. This is only my third year at trad archery. Hopefully I'll get several more to experiment with!

Here is the info. The man knows his stuff.

 

[Eroc33]

So I tested my original setup with different weights and 175 defiantly wouldn't shoot right, but 150 seems to be doing pretty good. I have also gotten a longer ATA bow to shoot some targets this summer, and I am going to set it up for 60 lbs. I am going to switch my maxima hunters to the lighter bow and I have ordered a black eagle test pack to test a 550gr and a 650gr arrow in my hunting bow.