Does any version of atheism include belief that there is a spiritual realm? Thanks.

[bullethead]

I've been meaning to ask you this for some time and just haven't got around to it, but given the orderly, understandable/intelligible laws governing this "energy" do you see it as an intelligent "energy". Just curious. For some reason this question has been bouncing around in my head for the last year or so. I have no idea why.

Basically "we" the human species and whatever else is in existence on this planet and anywhere else in the Universe right now are here because conditions allow it. Using Earth as an example human existence constitutes an extremely short period of time in the 4+ Billion years. We aren't here longer than we are because we couldn't be. 99% of every species that has ever lived on this planet over that time is extinct. They are gone because conditions which include variable reasons stopped being favorable to their life. We are 1%ers with every other species at this point in time. I don't get the feeling that we are hanging on by a thread as far as any environmental or geographical threat but there are many human threats and threats from beyond our planet that could send 99% of the 1% to extinction at any given moment.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

That's all I'm asking for - evidence.

I think this is the gist it, because this is where I cannot find reason in most A/A rationale. What exactly is "evidence"? For most A/As cite "evidence" with regards to God, Theism, the supernatural, (whatever you want to call it) as that of the scientific nature: tangible, reproducible, experiential, etc....along those lines. Yet much of our lives (ALL of us Atheist and Theist alike) we conduct ourselves and our actions on much less evidence and think nothing of it. Love, beauty, mercy, justice are all "real experiences" none of us would deny exist, yet to quantify them or reproduce them????

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I think this is the gist it, because this is where I cannot find reason in most A/A rationale. What exactly is "evidence"? For most A/As cite "evidence" with regards to God, Theism, the supernatural, (whatever you want to call it) as that of the scientific nature: tangible, reproducible, experiential, etc....along those lines. Yet much of our lives (ALL of us Atheist and Theist alike) we conduct ourselves and our actions on much less evidence and think nothing of it. Love, beauty, mercy, justice are all senses non of us would deny exist, yet to quantify them or reproduce them????

It was my understanding that you believed in an "original" energy or energy that predated the universe. That's what I was thinking of regarding my previous comments. If I misunderstood you forgive my memory. It's been a while.

 

[bullethead]

I was thinking more along the laws of physics that govern the universe like the law of gravity, the speed of light, etc. They are understandable and immutable. Not a physics major so my understanding is pretty limited regarding this kind of stuff, but to me, those kinds of things, even it it's seen as "an energy or force" is orderly.

They are what they are and seemingly have always been. Humans have not found a manifesto of the Universe where these laws have been explained to us from an outside source. These seemingly constant happenings had to be discovered by humans, observed, tested, re re re re tested 10^, reviewed confirmed, agreed upon and then given the definition of being a Law due to their consistent nature. Like the Sun, which at least for Billions of years has been a constant, we all know that at some point it will change even slightly to a state where conditions here will change dramatically. Life as we know it now absolutely will not be the same when that happens and only what can survive in the new conditions will. Eventually our now life giving Sun will cease to exist itself and so will life on this planet. Luckily for many of us we are able to exist while the conditions are ideal.

 

[WaltL1]

I don't think I have ever met an Atheist that didn't deny the existence of God based on (at least) the grounds of existentialism with existentialism as I understand it, as the ability to scientifically prove existence, or something along those lines. It just seems to me that once you open up the "spiritual" can of worms that argument goes out the window and it opens the door to the ALL supernatural which by definition IS unprovable/ un-reproducible. I may be missing something, or even your whole line of reasoning, but that's just my understanding.

I think the issue may be that we are viewing "spiritual" differently.
By the way, I dont disagree with your statement/understanding above. But Im viewing spiritual from this direction -

Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all. People may describe a spiritual experience as sacred or transcendent or simply a deep sense of aliveness and interconnectedness.
Some may find that their spiritual life is intricately linked to their association with a church, temple, mosque, or synagogue. Others may pray or find comfort in a personal relationship with God or a higher power. Still others seek meaning through their connections to nature or art. Like your sense of purpose, your personal definition of spirituality may change throughout your life, adapting to your own experiences and relationships.

So from where I sit, God/gods/Atheism/the associated personality traits associated with Atheism dont come into play.

 

[bullethead]

It was my understanding that you believed in an "original" energy or energy that predated the universe. That's what I was thinking of regarding my previous comments. If I misunderstood you forgive my memory. It's been a while.

I do not know what "was" before the Big Bang. I do not beleive that there was ever a time of "nothing". Something cannot come from nothing despite that thought being wrongly credited to Atheists.
Whatever conditions existed prior to the B.B. were obviously ripe for the B.B. to happen. I'd love to find out more about what it was/is in my lifetime but I am ok not knowing and admitting that I do not know until then.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I think the issue may be that we are viewing "spiritual" differently.
By the way, I dont disagree with your statement/understanding above. But Im viewing spiritual from this direction -

So from where I sit, God/gods/Atheism/the associated personality traits associated with Atheism dont come into play.

How do you square what you describe as "spirituality" with the requirement for proof. That's what I don't get. It seems to me once you require "hard" proof" spirituality of any type has to be sacrificed.

 

[bullethead]

I think this is the gist it, because this is where I cannot find reason in most A/A rationale. What exactly is "evidence"? For most A/As cite "evidence" with regards to God, Theism, the supernatural, (whatever you want to call it) as that of the scientific nature: tangible, reproducible, experiential, etc....along those lines. Yet much of our lives (ALL of us Atheist and Theist alike) we conduct ourselves and our actions on much less evidence and think nothing of it. Love, beauty, mercy, justice are all "real experiences" none of us would deny exist, yet to quantify them or reproduce them????

Love, beauty, mercy, justice ALL vary between individuals.Think of how much each vary from your tastes to that of someone else's.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I do not know what "was" before the Big Bang. I do not beleive that there was ever a time of "nothing". Something cannot come from nothing despite that thought being wrongly credited to Atheists.
Whatever conditions existed prior to the B.B. were obviously ripe for the B.B. to happen. I'd love to find out more about what it was/is in my lifetime but I am ok not knowing and admitting that I do not know until then.

Yeah, thinking outside of "time" is something I simply cannot fathom. I may as well try breathing underwater.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Love, beauty, mercy, justice ALL vary between individuals.Think of how much each vary from your tastes to that of someone else's.

I can see "vary" accounting for different spiritual experiences or none at all, but no one denies the existence of these despite being unable to measure, quantify or reproduce them. That's where I think this argument against theism fails. JMHO

 

[bullethead]

How do you square what you describe as "spirituality" with the requirement for proof. That's what I don't get. It seems to me once you require "hard" proof" spirituality of any type has to be sacrificed.

Like with all individual tastes things vary.
I get a spiritual feeling and appreciation when in a treestand or on a boat and the Sun is rising. Rays blaze through the clouds. I do get a feeling of something greater than me has caused that to happen. But I do not feel the need to pinpoint and define what that something is or give it a human name or face. It cannot be human-like any more than humans can be anything more than human such as god-like or force-like. Basically things all around us within our own planet and beyond are happening trillions of times every second. There are forces that make these things happen and I am content with accepting the explanations which make more sense to me than not while also realizing that I can never know everything or what may be the source of those sources. I cannot conceive that there is one factor responsible for all or that I not only know what it is by name but it has included me into it's plans or grace.

 

[oldfella1962]

I think this is the gist it, because this is where I cannot find reason in most A/A rationale. What exactly is "evidence"? For most A/As cite "evidence" with regards to God, Theism, the supernatural, (whatever you want to call it) as that of the scientific nature: tangible, reproducible, experiential, etc....along those lines. Yet much of our lives (ALL of us Atheist and Theist alike) we conduct ourselves and our actions on much less evidence and think nothing of it. Love, beauty, mercy, justice are all "real experiences" none of us would deny exist, yet to quantify them or reproduce them????

Because all the things you mentioned (love, justice, etc) are human concepts that exist only in our individual & collective human minds & imaginations. That said it's not a stretch to think that some of the delusions that are developed & encouraged in our human brains can become shared & codified to develop into religions, which spawn even more delusions that keep the religion afloat or maybe even expand the religion.
Yada yada yada we have Christianity, which will exist for as long as it's believers will it to exist, until it goes extinct or rendered as ancient mythology.

 

[bullethead]

I can see "vary" accounting for different spiritual experiences or none at all, but no one denies the existence of these despite being unable to measure, quantify or reproduce them. That's where I think this argument against theism fails. JMHO

How many times has someone felt 100% that they were in Love and lived accordingly only to find out that it was no such thing? Because of such variations each individual's version of love, beauty etc is a different definition from anothers. Emotions cloud thruths.

 

[660griz]

despite being unable to measure, quantify or reproduce them.

But emotions can be measured and quantified.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Because all the things you mentioned (love, justice, etc) are human concepts that exist only in our individual & collective human minds & imaginations. That said it's not a stretch to think that some of the delusions that are developed & encouraged in our human brains can become shared & codified to develop into religions, which spawn even more delusions that keep the religion afloat or maybe even expand the religion.
Yada yada yada we have Christianity, which will exist for as long as it's believers will it to exist, until it goes extinct or rendered as ancient mythology.

I think this is a good point. We all agree on "that exist". Now whether we call them(love, justice, etc) "concepts" which you do, or with regards to theism/atheism, "God" I think we will both agree that we find these concepts valid enough to act on them. They are REAL to us. Real enough that we live much of our lives devoted to them, yet they are as unquantifiable and reproducible as a ghost. To me that's where the "provable/reproducable/quantifiable argument against God falls flat. It's demanding evidence for the existence of something in order to act: evidence we don't require for any other non-physical "concept" which we readily accept and act on without question every minute of every day.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

How many times has someone felt 100% that they were in Love and lived accordingly only to find out that it was no such thing? Because of such variations each individual's version of love, beauty etc is a different definition from anothers. Emotions cloud thruths.

I get that. I get your point, but it doesn't detract from the fact that we believe non-physical "concepts" are just as tangible as the physical. We don't doubt the concept of love, beauty. That's my point: Everyday we believe and act according to our belief in non physical yet tangible "concepts". To say we don't believe in God because he isn't quantifiable, reproducible, or physical is flawed reasoning in light of that.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

But emotions can be measured and quantified.

Quantify @bullethead's feeling of "I get a spiritual feeling and appreciation when in a treestand or on a boat and the Sun is rising." Reproduce it exactly at will. Yet is it not real? It's 100% real yet the spiritual aspect of it is immeasurable. If it's like mine I couldn't reproduce it if I tried a million years. The weather, the conditions, the environment, etc. may all be exactly as the time before, but the spiritual feeling may be there or it may not. If it is, it may have a totally different feel. It's still just as real and just as moving.

 

[660griz]

It's 100% real yet the spiritual aspect of it is immeasurable.

"Spiritual" is just a way to convey an emotion or feeling. Feelings and emotions can be measured. Numerous ways. I get a 'spiritual' feeling in the tree stand when the sun starts coming up too. It makes me happy.

Emotions are physical and instinctive, instantly prompting bodily reactions to threat, reward, and everything in between. The bodily reactions can be measured objectively by pupil dilation (eye tracking), skin conductance (EDA/GSR), brain activity (EEG, fMRI), heart rate (ECG), and facial expressions.

 

[WaltL1]

How do you square what you describe as "spirituality" with the requirement for proof. That's what I don't get. It seems to me once you require "hard" proof" spirituality of any type has to be sacrificed.

As Bullet and Griz says above its a "feeling". When you sit in a tree stand watching the sun come up you may FEEL close to God. An A/A may FEEL close to nature. Or be in wonder at the beauty of it all. Or FEEL connected to nature etc etc.
That feeling and/or wonder of it all could be described as "spiritual".

 

[oldfella1962]

But emotions can be measured and quantified.

to a degree I suppose. Scientists can hook up sensors to our brains for example to physically measure what parts of the brain are activated under certain stimulation & whatnot. But still, what your brain is doing as it relates to the unique "you" of your own internal reality can't be conveyed with 100 percent accuracy to another person's unique "them" that encompasses their internal reality. Science is making great strides in that area however, which is interesting & exciting.

I wish I knew some way to get what I dream about nearly every night (generally at least a couple of long, weird & bizarre dreams that I remember when I wake up) onto a movie screen because that would blow your minds! Most are PG with a few being PG13 or rated R but rarely anything graphic.