WaltL1
Senior Member
Yep. Im a former Roman Catholic and that was my understanding.
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Adam's rib - quick question for Biblical literalists
- Thread starter oldfella1962
- Start date
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Also John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
What about all of Paul's greetings in his letters?
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Plus he never includes the Holy Spirit?
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
I don't think that implies that Jesus wasn't good, just Jesus giving he goodness to God. We should actually do the same. His goodness was derived from his Father.
There are other verses that God sent Jesus and that Jesus is doing miracles and wonders and signs only through him from his Father in Heaven.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
What about all of Paul's greetings in his letters?
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Plus he never includes the Holy Spirit?
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
I don't think that implies that Jesus wasn't good, just Jesus giving he goodness to God. We should actually do the same. His goodness was derived from his Father.
There are other verses that God sent Jesus and that Jesus is doing miracles and wonders and signs only through him from his Father in Heaven.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
If Jesus is God which is right? Trinity or Oneness? Did God the Father incarnate as the Son or did the 1/3 of the Trinity known as Christ, incarnate as Jesus? Has that 1/3 we know as Son always existed in more that God's Word or did that 1/3 part become God's son when he was born a man?
oldfella1962
Senior Member
Maybe he didn't want others to know because it's all about the big "reveal" when it's time for that jaw-dropping surprise.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Hundreds of reasons that can be suggested after the fact. Pro and Con. One as likely as the other
No clarity when it supposedly happened.
brutally honest
Senior Member
My RC sources are a little vague on the issue. Maybe it’s a question of semantics. I’m not Catholic, so I won’t debate Catholicism with you.
My understanding of the Anglican and Orthodox positions are different, however.
brutally honest
Senior Member
The Jewish apostles, along with Jewish Paul, Jewish Barnabas, and Jewish Apollos went into Jewish synagogues on the Jewish sabbath and preached to Jews from the Jewish scriptures. Consequently, many Jews believed that Jesus was the Jewish messiah.
brutally honest
Senior Member
Peter’s audience on the day of Pentecost was 100% Jewish. Three thousand Jews were baptized that day. All this occurred before Paul entered the picture.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
According to......
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Look up the requirements from Jewish sources and see for yourself.
If you are at all familiar with Judaism, the people were and are always searching for gods and messiahs. They worshipped many gods(bible shows examples of that) and have had numerous messiah candidates who's followers (like Peter, Paul and all who are associated with Jesus) were sure that the candidates were the messiah and followed them 100% They also died for their guys too.
You can search Messiah candidates that fulfilled even more requirements than Jesus but ultimately did not accomplish them ALL.
Like within Christianity and most religions, there are always offshoots of the original or main core. Christianity has 40,000 denominations that all differ slightly in order to suit like minded people. Judiasm is no different. Their history is full of guys like Paul and the gang who wanted to take the religion in directions to suit.
*Edited to include:
This is a quick outline that should be researched more in depth but it gives you basis to go off of.
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/videos/six-reasons-why-jews-don-t-believe-in-jesus
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bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
I guess the Roman Catholics set the rules and everyone else did what they wanted with them to suit. ?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Another site with better explanations about why Jesus just isn't "the guy".
https://aish.com/why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus/
https://aish.com/why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus/
WaltL1
Senior Member
Its one of those things, like most things that has to do with Christianity, that ends up going around in circles with the so called scholars/experts.
But basically the Preist is granting forgiveness through authority granted from God/Jesus.
As a former Roman Catholic that, although simplified, is what I was taught.
brutally honest
Senior Member
You can post stuff like this till the cows come home, and my reply will be the same:
The Jewish apostles, along with Jewish Paul, Jewish Barnabas, and Jewish Apollos went into Jewish synagogues on the Jewish sabbath and preached to Jews from the Jewish scriptures. Consequently, many Jews believed that Jesus was the Jewish messiah.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Joseph Smith preached to Christians who were raised Christian and went to Christian Churches, on Christian days of worship and Christians believed what Joseph Smith was telling them.
Does that make Joseph Smith right?
Are you a Mormon now?
Or do you find fault with his teachings even though others think those teachings are 100% right.
Paul and the rest of your crew are the Joseph Smiths.
Welcome home Cows.
brutally honest
Senior Member
... 1800 years after the fact. I'm talking about Jews who knew Jesus and/or the apostles.
You point out that most Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. Fine! Most gentiles don't believe He is, either.
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." - Matt. 7:14
brutally honest
Senior Member
These guys didn't get the memo.
"Messianic Judaism is actually 2,000 years old. Dating back to the time of the Messiah Yeshua. Historically, Yeshua was Jewish. He was raised in a Jewish home and ministered to Jewish people in a Jewish land (Eretz Yisrael). His disciples were Jewish. The apostles were Jewish. The writers of the Brit Hadashah (New Covenant or New Testament) were Jewish, and for a time, the faith was strictly Jewish.
Some historians believe that more than one million Jewish people in the first century A.D. believed that Yeshua was the Messiah, both in Israel and outside of Israel (Acts 2:37-42, 4:4, 21:20)."
Messianic Judaism | Beth Yeshua International -
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
A small % of Jews were convinced. Similar % twere convinced of other Jews being the messiah throughout their history.
Joseph Smith was able to take 1800 years of beliefs and change peoples minds. No different than Paul.
Paul did it a couple thouand years "after the fact" of Abraham and Moses.
Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy in the Torah. If you actually read the requirements you can clearly see that and yet you still overlook it to go with what you want to believe. You aren't any different than those who believe what they want or need to.
Saying "but Paul and those others said he did and people believe them..." does not negate what the requirements are and that Jesus didn't fulfill them.
If you can refute the outline laid out in the Aish link I posted I am all ears. If you've read it and your rebuttle is that some Jews bought into Peter and Paul's stories is all on you. Christianity was on a decline, hanging on by a thread until Rome adopted it, tweaked it, and used it to bring multiple beliefs together so more would buy into it. As far as religions go,Christianity was hanging on by a thread and on its way out until Constantine.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Lots of religions are old. Many still have followers with beliefs. Do they hold more clout than any other?
Who are these "some" historians?
Are you using scripture as a source to confirm scripture?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Let's break the Messanic Jews down.
They are the Jews who belive that Jesus is their Messiah but that is as far as it goes. They do not worship him because they worship a Deity and do not worship a man who is ordained by God to lead the people.
They are outnumbered and flanked by both non-messanic Jews and Christians.
The non-messanic Jews worship God and are still waiting for their messiah.
The Christians started as messanic Jews and then for some reason also made a man into a part of their God which is also a no-no in traditional Judaism and then started to worship him.
It's like a denomination branched off to follow thier own beleifs the same as in Christianity. Some Christian denominations pray to Mary and Saints. Who was the one to sell that twist?
