American Troops are being outgunned in Afghanistan

Interesting article. My question is what are the insurgents using that is more capable than the 5.56?

American troops are often outgunned by Afghan insurgents because they lack the precision weapons, deadly rounds, and training needed to kill the enemy in the long-distance firefights common in Afghanistan's rugged terrain, according to an internal Army study.
Unlike in Iraq, where most shooting took place at relatively short range in urban neighborhoods, U.S. troops in Afghanistan are more often attacked from high ground with light machine guns and mortars from well beyond 300 meters (327 yards, or just over three football field lengths). The average range for a small-arms firefight in Afghanistan is about 500 meters, according to the study.



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Unless U.S. troops under attack call in artillery or air strikes and risk civilian casualties, the only way they can fight back is with long-distance precision shooting -- a capability currently in short supply among infantry units, according to a study done at the Army's School of Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., by Maj. Thomas P. Ehrhart.



According to Ehrhart's paper, Army infantrymen do not regularly train and practice shooting at distances of more than 300 meters. The round fired from their M4 carbines and M16 rifles, the 5.56mm bullet, don't carry enough velocity at long distances to kill.



While the Army has moved recently to equip each infantry company of about 200 soldiers with nine designated marksmen to overcome this problem, they don't often carry weapons with sufficient killing power at distance, and there aren't enough of them, Ehrhart reports.

Army spokesmen had no immediate comment on Ehrhart's paper, which was released by SAMS last month and given wider circulation by defensetech.org and the Kit Up! blog on military.com.



Most infantrymen in Afghanistan carry the M4 carbine, a version of the standard M16 rifle, but with a shorter barrel. It was designed to allow soldiers to operate from cramped armored vehicles and in the city neighborhoods of Iraq. But the shorter barrel robs the weapon of the ability to shoot accurately at long distances, because the bullet doesn't acquire as much stabilizing spin when it is fired as it does in a longer barrel.

Soldiers commonly are taught in training to use "suppressive fire,'' in effect returning enemy attacks with sprays of gunfire, which are often ineffective in Afghanistan.



One reason is the ineffectiveness of the most commonly used round, designated the M855. Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, was once accidentally shot in the chest with an M855 round from a light machine gun; rather than being killed, he walked out of the hospital several days later.



Ehrhart recalls seeing a soldier shot with a M855 round from a distance of 75 meters in training. Twenty minutes later he was "walking around smoking a cigarette.''



Such incidents may be flukes, but they do illustrate that the rounds can lack killing power. Most infantrymen are equipped to fire the M855 round from their M4 carbine, M16 rifle, or the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon), a light machine gun. When a firefight erupts in Afghanistan, they are unable to fire back accurately at more than 200 or 300 meters, leaving it to soldiers with heavier weapons -- the M240 machine gun, 60-mm mortars or snipers equipped with M14 rifles.



"These [heavier] weapons represent 19 percent of the company's firepower,'' Ehrhart wrote, meaning that "81 percent of the company has little effect on the fight.

"This is unacceptable.''

One quick fix, he suggested, is to equip the designated marksmen within each company with a powerful weapon that can kill at long distances, the M110 sniper weapon, which is effective out to 800 meters.



These rifles are expensive -- about $8,000 apiece. But you could outfit every infantry squad in the Army with two M110 rifles for the price of one U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor supersonic stealthy fighter, Ehrhart noted.

Ironically, American doughboys in World War I were better trained and equipped for Afghanistan-style firefights than today's GIs.



"The U.S. infantry weapon has devolved from the World War I rifle capable of conducting lethal fire out to 1,200 yards, to the current weapon that can hit a target out to 300 meters but probably will not kill it,'' Ehrhart wrote.



The School of Advanced Military Studies, where Ehrhart was a student last year, trains the Army's brightest young officers for senior leadership. His unclassified paper, written last year, does not reflect official Army positions. But the paper has rocketed around in military circles and has been read avidly in some units preparing to deploy to Afghanistan.

But even before his report began circulating widely, some Army units were acting on the hard-learned lessons from Afghanistan, where the Army has been fighting for almost nine years.



Several weeks ago I watched an infantry battalion of the 10<sup>th</sup> Mountain Division's 4<sup>th</sup> Brigade Combat Team working on live fire maneuvers in central Wyoming.



One key focus, according to Command Sgt. Maj. Doug Maddi, was to hone soldiers' skills in high-angle and long-distance shooting -- precisely the skills not widely required in regular Army training, according to Ehrhart.

Where normal Army marksmanship training is often conducted on level ground against pop-up targets, Maddi and the battalion commander, Lt. Col. Chris Ramsey, had their men shooting up towering ridgelines and down steep inclines, and at distances out to 600 meters.



The battalion's troops, wearing their full battle kit, also were firing live rounds while running, and while running with heavy packs, up and down the steep Wyoming ridges



"We're here to replicate the environment of Afghanistan,'' said Ramsey, who brought his battalion to Wyoming from its home base at Fort Polk, La. "We don't get this kind of terrain at home.''



Ramsey told me he had not read Ehrhart's paper before his battalion deployed to Wyoming for a month's training in early February. Polishing those skills was "intuitive,'' he said. But he said the paper now has been read across the battalion.



At a meeting with reporters this week, Army Secretary John McHugh was asked whether he was familiar with the Ehrhart report. McHugh said he was not, but after hearing a brief description, he said he would track down the paper and read it.












http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/02/army-report-gis-outgunned-in-afghanistan/
 

duckdawgdixie

Senior Member
speaking from experience the 5.56 is anemic, to answer your question they are using draganov's and ak's in 7.62, during my last deployment to iraq i was a squad designated marksman after i went back to a line unit from sniper section and the riffles we got issued were m-14's.
we couldnt even get match grade ammo, we had to delink m-240 rounds so we would have somthing to fire out of them, i didnt even have a scope for mine for the first 4 months i had it, when i did get a scope it was less than adequate(think wal-mart bargin bin quality).

so yea this article is no surprise to me just dont expect the army to change anything
 

Brassman

Senior Member
Once again, history repeats itself. I want to say up front that I was not in the military and therefore I feel uncomfortable discussing military issues. However, IMO they need to go back to a .30 caliber round (30-06 in M1 Garand or .308 in M 14). Also, the military needs to develop it's own corps of long distance shooting instructors instead of trying to make do with volunteer Distinguished Riflemen from CMP. Then the military would have to go back to emphasizing and improving marksmanship training.
 

DYI hunting

Senior Member
I have never personally seen combat, but I think the 5.56 is a little light for anything beyond urban and jungle combat. Even then I think 6.8 SPC is a much better round for the job.

Anything out in the open like Afghanistan, I believe I would feel really undergunned without a 7.62 and optics. The added weigh would be a pain in the backside, but I bet the boots on the ground would welcome a M14 or other 7.62 platform with optics.
 

germag

Gone But Not Forgotten
The M-16 platform is great for what it was intended for.....a close quarters assault weapon....but it's not really designed or intended as a battle rifle. Once again, you need to use the right tool for the job at hand.....a weapon chambered for something like 7.62 NATO would be much more suitable and effective for 300-500 meter engagements.
 

GAdeadEye

Senior Member
You would think with all the advances in firearm technology our brave soldiers would be packing some far superior weapons, Just give them some nice old sprigfeild .308's with some decent optics and they could just pop off the bad guy one by one, one shot one kill instead of wasting money on tons of ammo that just falls short.
 

Brassman

Senior Member
Actually, there was a letter about this subject in the March issue of Guns & Ammo on Page 10. It was in reference to the 9/09 issue "concerning replacement of the M16 system with a real rifle".

To summarize, the letter writer suggested that the US military could readily obtain CETMEs, G3s, & FN-FALS in vast quantities on the world market. He said they have been & are used by many countries, are all chambered for 7.62 NATO, & have a worldwide reputation for toughness & reliability.

I can see how there could be supply & maintenance problems for the US military if we did this, but wouldn't this work as a short term solution until a single, standardized weapon could be decided on for our military? It seems like a step in the right direction to me.
 

USMC0844

Senior Member
I am currently in Afghanistan, an artilleryman by job, an infantryman by assignment. I have been fighting the Taliban for the past few months. I shoot an M4 as my personal weapon and an M240B when I am in the truck turret. There has been nothing so far that a platoon of Marines are unable to supress using mostly these two weapons. The rounds we are using may be smaller but it has still been proven to reach out and touch someone at 300yds just the same as a 7.62. Brassman, I can tell you from my personal experiences, the training that I and every other Marine in Afghanistan recieves is excellent and has proven worthwhile for us. We train to be able to engage at 500yds. The purpose of our DM in the platoon is to reach out beyond those distances, although we are rarely engaged past 400yds. Also, I already carry over 80lbs of gear. Why should I add more weight to reach to a distance that I'm not getting shot at from? This is all JMHO.
 

Hunter Blair

Senior Member
I am currently in Afghanistan, an artilleryman by job, an infantryman by assignment. I have been fighting the Taliban for the past few months. I shoot an M4 as my personal weapon and an M240B when I am in the truck turret. There has been nothing so far that a platoon of Marines are unable to supress using mostly these two weapons. The rounds we are using may be smaller but it has still been proven to reach out and touch someone at 300yds just the same as a 7.62. Brassman, I can tell you from my personal experiences, the training that I and every other Marine in Afghanistan recieves is excellent and has proven worthwhile for us. We train to be able to engage at 500yds. The purpose of our DM in the platoon is to reach out beyond those distances, although we are rarely engaged past 400yds. Also, I already carry over 80lbs of gear. Why should I add more weight to reach to a distance that I'm not getting shot at from? This is all JMHO.

while i can see both sides to this argument, i'm gonna have to agree with the man that has seen it personally.... Thank you for your service USMC0844... :flag:
 

Wild Turkey

Senior Member
One of the main reasons the M16 was delveloped was to utilize a smaller round that wounded more than killed. Theory being it takes out 3 guys when you wound one. 2 to carry.
I think we leaned this from the japs in WWII and the subsequent
M1 in 30 cal did that job well. A very good wounding weapon it was.
 

Brassman

Senior Member
Hello, USMC0844. Thank you for your service & your sacrifice. Your answer was very informative. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Brassman
 
R

redneckcamo

Guest
I am currently in Afghanistan, an artilleryman by job, an infantryman by assignment. I have been fighting the Taliban for the past few months. I shoot an M4 as my personal weapon and an M240B when I am in the truck turret. There has been nothing so far that a platoon of Marines are unable to supress using mostly these two weapons. The rounds we are using may be smaller but it has still been proven to reach out and touch someone at 300yds just the same as a 7.62. Brassman, I can tell you from my personal experiences, the training that I and every other Marine in Afghanistan recieves is excellent and has proven worthwhile for us. We train to be able to engage at 500yds. The purpose of our DM in the platoon is to reach out beyond those distances, although we are rarely engaged past 400yds. Also, I already carry over 80lbs of gear. Why should I add more weight to reach to a distance that I'm not getting shot at from? This is all JMHO.

an answer straight from the frontline !!

:flag:thanks so much for your service my brother :cheers:
 

Mingo

Banned
That PKM can be hard on a feller. Them Arab Hillbillies know how to use them too.
 

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FishinMech

Senior Member
The army only goes out to 100 meters with a simulated 300 meter target. That is why that cant engage targets out a long ranges. Marines shoot a 200 300 and 500 at boot. And have to qualify with it every year. A Marine is a rifleman before anything. I am not trying to bash the army. I'm just giving some info. Its like back when the we first went to war and Marines were making head shots at 500 meters and the DOD had to do a investigation they thought they were executing prisoners because of so many head shots. And after the investigation they found out that all kills were made at long distances. But a 223 kills and kills good a 55gr bullet get what they call a tumble effect. As if enters the body it starts to flatten and tumble tearing everything up in the process. But that is just my .02.
 
O

Otis

Guest
The army only goes out to 100 meters with a simulated 300 meter target. That is why that cant engage targets out a long ranges. Marines shoot a 200 300 and 500 at boot. And have to qualify with it every year. A Marine is a rifleman before anything. I am not trying to bash the army. I'm just giving some info. Its like back when the we first went to war and Marines were making head shots at 500 meters and the DOD had to do a investigation they thought they were executing prisoners because of so many head shots. And after the investigation they found out that all kills were made at long distances. But a 223 kills and kills good a 55gr bullet get what they call a tumble effect. As if enters the body it starts to flatten and tumble tearing everything up in the process. But that is just my .02.


:rolleyes: Care to share with me where you get your facts from?
 

germag

Gone But Not Forgotten
I am currently in Afghanistan, an artilleryman by job, an infantryman by assignment. I have been fighting the Taliban for the past few months. I shoot an M4 as my personal weapon and an M240B when I am in the truck turret. There has been nothing so far that a platoon of Marines are unable to supress using mostly these two weapons. The rounds we are using may be smaller but it has still been proven to reach out and touch someone at 300yds just the same as a 7.62. Brassman, I can tell you from my personal experiences, the training that I and every other Marine in Afghanistan recieves is excellent and has proven worthwhile for us. We train to be able to engage at 500yds. The purpose of our DM in the platoon is to reach out beyond those distances, although we are rarely engaged past 400yds. Also, I already carry over 80lbs of gear. Why should I add more weight to reach to a distance that I'm not getting shot at from? This is all JMHO.



I'm glad to know you're not experiencing the kind of problems described in that article....that's a relief to me.

Thank you for your service. You and all of our troops are in my thoughts and prayers daily. Stay safe.

Semper Fi.
 

FishinMech

Senior Member
And how long ago was this may I ask. I was looking for it today most of the army only has to shoot at 30 meters or something like that. What I am getting at is if you are a supply clerk and then you get lat moved while you are in Afgan or Iraq then you have no exp at shooting what so ever. And guys most of us are old country boys that know and knew how to shoot before. I mean you got to think there are so kids in that have never even shot a gun. Ok i found something this is the standard combat course. a. Is the standard combat course, 300 yard KD; 25-meter scaled target or 300-meter qualification course used?

And here is the site i got it from. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c01.htm#1_11

Guys like i said i am not trying to bash the army. I am simply trying to say that army is not that great of a marksman. And also how long ago were you in. This stuff changes all the time.
 

ArmyTaco

Senior Member
Yeah I know our targets were really 300 meters out there. I am a former 11B. This was 2006-2009. We trained moving targets, sitting, 25 to 300 on regular ranges. Need to get some better facts there bubba. Army is not that easy..although I know where you coming from..Marines were never as good as us neither. LOL
 
long range shootin`

I don`t know why you guys that are over there,or have been there,bother to argue with those that ain`t been and ain`t goin`.I appreciate what all you guys are doing over there.My war was 40 years ago.I`d join you if they asked me to.Maybe they need a geezer corps.With 06s.Call it the Geezer Garand Corps.That`s all we`re good fer, and shootin`.
 
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