American Troops are being outgunned in Afghanistan

[EDL]

55 grain 193 ball ammo is a good round, but is no longer used by our troops.
77 grain MK262 is used by special forces only, and is a good round.
62 grain M855 green tip ammo does not have the terminal effect as the previous two rounds. It penetrates armor better, but doesn't yaw (tumble) in flesh and break apart.

Heres what M193 can do.
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

 

[redneckcamo]

55 grain 193 ball ammo is a good round, but is no longer used by our troops.
77 grain MK262 is used by special forces only, and is a good round.
62 grain M855 green tip ammo does not have the terminal effect as the previous two rounds. It penetrates armor better, but doesn't yaw (tumble) in flesh and break apart.

Heres what M193 can do.
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

...
seen that before but it still horrific !!

 

[Mingo]

My dad was a Forward Observer in the US ARMY from 1979-1985. He said they shot way past 300 meters. Also he said when he was in FO school doin artillery training the Marines in his class looked better than them & were in a lil better shape but paled in comparison to the ARMY when they started callin for fire on the plottin board. He was attached to the 82nd Airborne in 1983 & went to Grenada to call for fire with the All Americans. Cubans attacked them & he said they were shootin at extended range. The Cubans had FALs & couldn't hit with them, then they would bust their as* with the M16A1 when they would pop up to run towards them.

 

[GunnSmokeer]

So what is the heart of the problem-- that our guns with M4 carbines can't HIT the bad guys 500 yards away in Afghanistan, or that they do hit them, but don't wound them bad enough to take them out of the fight?

If somebody is shooting at you, and you shoot back and put a bullet through their shoulder, or belly, or maybe puncture a lung, aren't they going to stop shooting at you? Okay, they may survive to fight you again another day.
Imagine it happened to you--doesn't being wounded like that pretty much take you out of the battle at that time, when you're shooting at the enemy across a valley a quarter-mile or half-mile away and there's no imminent danger of them overrunning your position?

FWIW, I've seen people with M4s pound three-foot diameter targets from 600 yards. But the distance was known, and several sighting shots were allowed, and it was slow fire with each shot spotted individually.

 

[armalite]

one shot one kill with the 223 only on yotes. give them boys some fire power.bring back the M1 grand. Until the yankee govt. can figure it out.Iwould gladly carry the heaver ammo.

 

[germag]

one shot one kill with the 223 only on yotes. give them boys some fire power.bring back the M1 grand. Until the yankee govt. can figure it out.Iwould gladly carry the heaver ammo.

For a battle rifle the M14 (in a synthetic stock) would make a lot more sense to me than an M1 Garand.

 

[telsonman]

As an Army infantry squad leader, who was 11B for my whole stint, I can say that we never qualified on a paper target that was simulated 300m target, and I ETS in 2 months. I've always done it on pop ups out to 300m. I've also been a squad designated marksman, and have shot targets out past 800m.
I've also done a tour in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'll admit that article is pretty true. We have gotten into several fights in Afghanistan, and they are always out there. It seems that the M4s just lay suppressive fire most of the time, granted we have killed bad guys out that far, but its hard to get a bead on them. Everyone has ACOGs on their M4s too, so that makes it a little better. I believe that we do need M14s on the battlefield as a standard weapon. They just issue them to the SDMs now, but that EBR stock is a piece. Anyway, the 240 does most of the work, and I used a Mark 19 that was on our outpost most of the time to get out there when the COP was getting attacked. We were in the mountains, and the bad guys would always hit us from about 400m and past, usually around 600m.

I'm for it. And for the record, when I was in Iraq, the marines shot at us more than the insurgents. So maybe they need to work on target identification more.

 

[Mingo]

Telsonman, what are they shooting at you guys from 600 meters with? Everybody can't have a PKM? Are they pullin Mausers & Mosin-Nagants on you guys or somethin? As we all know AKMs aren't 600 meter point target weapons.

 

[telsonman]

We usually got engaged with AKs, PKMs, and RPGs. Its pretty intense when RPGs are airbursting over your head. Anyway, these mud people in Afghanistan are pretty on point with their weapons, I'll hand it to them. We got in it one time from about 600m out, and we were pinned down, and I really mean pinned down, we couldn't move at all on my side of the formation. Luckily the left side had some cover and they got the 240 rocking and we maneuvered back and returned fire. That same time, from 600m out, my platoon sergeant took an AK round to the kevlar, and yes, he's fine. But, that goes to show you that they too know how to use their weapons, and its not like they do in Iraq with the whole spray and pray, these guys take aimed shots. A lot of times they will pop off a round or two, then take cover, then pop up again, pretty intense. The PKMs will make your heart stop. They can shoot and move, and flank, etc. They fight with heart.

And yes, I agree about AKs not being accurate, but thats only to a point really. I got 3 at home, but I carried around one over there that was awesome. It was an AMD65, I think, that short hungarian one, and its was accurate as heck. It was also the most comfortable and controllable full auto that I've ever shot.

 

[EcoFriendlyAmmo]

first i would like to say thanks you to all that are serving and have served our nation. my wifes cousin is in marine force recon and served with the marines for 20 years now, and i talk with him as much as possible, very good guys but also very intense fellow. he's been in the sand box 9 times between a-stan and iraq, so i think he's qualified to have an opinion. the marine that is a-stan now that posted above sound really close to what Jim says goes on. shot placement is where the problem lies according to him. i try not to ask many questions about fighting but do ask about weapons, ammo, optics, etc..... and he's always been very cool enough to talk with me. i've actually had the pleasure to shoot black rifles with him, after seeing this man's skill sets, i would never doubt anything he says. also the marines still issue the m16a4 as where the army issues the M4 now, the 20" rifle should have better range, over the 14.5 barrel. i'm sure that is another factor. i'm not military, but i try to listen to the guys that have been there. when you have marines saying that the weapons and ammo they use are suffecient to kill the enemy, then i tend to believe them.

 

[telsonman]

Well, to be honest, I can't stand the M4 as a combat weapon, I too would rather have an M16, but a m14 would just sweeten the deal. I don't think the m4 has what it takes for long rang shooting. Its only a 3 moa weapon I think. In Iraq I had an m16a4 with an ACOG on it, and I could drive tacks with it, but this M4 is like shooting a mini 14(most of yall will get that).

 

[LaRue]

We lack precision weaponry and training? Compared to Hadji? Are you kidding me?

That's just bull.

All my brothers come back to me with confidence in the weapon and the caliber because it works. People will make a fuss about anything but the 5.56 has been working for decades.

It's not the end all solution to firearms, but that is why we have different weapons in the equation.

Combat Power = Firepower + Maneuver + Protection + Leadership

Your firepower is amalgamated through the various systems you have available to you including small arms, mortar systems, and fire support.

Look at how we organize things. Weapons are diversified from the lowest fireteam level all the way up.

By itself the M4/M16 will fall short. But it's rarely by itself. You have hand grenades, 40mm HE and Smoke, precision optics, SAW, mortars, and sometimes designated marksman support.

All of those M110 systems will fall short too by themselves.

We are a diversified Army and we integrate many weapon systems in order to be successful.