Can we overstate the importance of acres / hunter ratio?

[Jim Boyd]

Swamp,

On the 50’s - how long did the deer population last?

Even if each member ONLY took two deer annually, that is 25 deer per square mile that are killed and taken each year.

How long can this property remain interesting?

No insult - just a question!

 

[Swamprat]

Swamp,

On the 50’s - how long did the deer population last?

Even if each member ONLY took two deer annually, that is 25 deer per square mile that are killed and taken each year.

How long can this property remain interesting?

No insult - just a question!

Deer population was fine, 6 of us on 300 acres and maybe only 3 of us hunted it regular and we would average 5-9 deer per year.

It got boring though with only 300 acres but it was a good travel area and we killed some decent bucks on it.

The lease with over 500 per member was close to 2700 acres with 5 members. We had a 3 buck limit and with doe tags were allowed 4 a piece. this club was underhunted and way overpopulated with deer. We probably averaged 10-15 deer a year which hardly put a dent in them. 3 of the folks might harvest 1 doe while me and my BIL filled ours.

No problem to see 15-25 deer per sit. Whole nother story but landowner had no clue how to manage it so it resulted in just average bucks. We all volunteered to help turn it around but it was his land and he just ignored us.

 

[95g atl]

heck I see more deer on my 3.5 acre home in suburbs than i'll ever see at my hunt club (31 members, 2000 acres).

 

[FlipKing]

We are at 67 acres per person but the majority of our club are heavy hunters. We normally only have about 8 people hunting 1200 acres at any given time.

 

[GottaGetOutdoors]

You can have 50 acres per hunter - and most typical hunters want at least three deer per year. At that rate, you would harvest 38+ deer per square mile.

Rare is the tract that can stand that type of harvest and remain interesting.

JB is spot-on. Deer density is around 40/sq mile (640 acres) across much of the South. There are pocket areas with much higher deer density, often due to larger private properties with tightly controlled access.

On most GA timberland, 200 acres/hunter is optimal balance between cost and quality. Increase that to 300 acres/hunter on intensively managed QDM leases. We also screen for members who live at least 1-hour from the property.

Here's a good exercise that every hunt club should do. Tally the total # of hunts, total # of guests brought, and total # deer killed for each member and guest at your club last deer season. Then rank them from most to least. In other words, who hunted the most? who killed the most? who brought the most guests? Give this ranked list to all club members. Ask each member to locate their own data. Then answer this one question: "If every member in my club hunted exactly the same # times as me, brought the same # guests as me, killed the same # deer as me, and killed the same type deer as me....would it improve or diminish the quality of our club?" The answer to those questions helps make some management decisions much clearer.

 

[across the river]

You have to consider who is hunting around you when considering the acreage. I've seen a 30 acre tract you could kill all you wanted off of, but no one hunted the thousands of acres it borders. I've also seen a 1000 acre tract of nothing but older pine trees that wouldn't hold up to a hunter per 100. It depends on the tract, what is going on beside it, and how many deer the people hunting it want to shoot each year.

 

[B. White]

JB is spot-on. Deer density is around 40/sq mile (640 acres) across much of the South. There are pocket areas with much higher deer density, often due to larger private properties with tightly controlled access.

On most GA timberland, 200 acres/hunter is optimal balance between cost and quality. Increase that to 300 acres/hunter on intensively managed QDM leases. We also screen for members who live at least 1-hour from the property.

Here's a good exercise that every hunt club should do. Tally the total # of hunts, total # of guests brought, and total # deer killed for each member and guest at your club last deer season. Then rank them from most to least. In other words, who hunted the most? who killed the most? who brought the most guests? Give this ranked list to all club members. Ask each member to locate their own data. Then answer this one question: "If every member in my club hunted exactly the same # times as me, brought the same # guests as me, killed the same # deer as me, and killed the same type deer as me....would it improve or diminish the quality of our club?"

I would assume 20-25 per sq mile without a survey, if someone is trying to do quick math for their piece of property. A group of 10 guys on one tract can lead to over harvest in a hurry with current regs, if they make the wrong assumptions.

 

[Jim Boyd]

Great points, GGO.

Problem is many clubs don’t have accurate data, particularly with the salient points that help you make good decisions.

We had it for years in our paper sign in logs (although we did not assimilate the data from year to year) and then we got lazy.

We are going to use Virtual Sign In Board this year, for SC and Illinois and take advantage of the reporting that is part of the package.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I think it is one thing that folks don't really understand or think about enough. You always hear people wanting to lower the doe limit to two. They never think further than that.

The majority of Georgia has an average deer population of 25-30 per square mile, according to the latest info I could find in a quick search of the current deer management plan. If we go with 30 deer on 640 acres, that means roughly 15 does and 15 bucks. If that 640 acres is all in one club, and you have one hunter per hundred acres, you have six-seven hunters. If each hunter on that club kills one doe, about half the does on that land are now gone. If each hunter kills two does, which is fairly normal, you now have basically no does left. What's the population look like next year?

And people next year will be screaming that the coyotes ate all the deer. No they didn't- you did. And that's not even taking into account the deer on that property that actually were eaten by coyotes, run over by cars, or died from disease or old age.

Now, let's say that the 640 acres in question is a more realistic square mile: two 250-acre leases, two fifty-acre family farms, and a few smaller tracts of land. Each of those leases will probably have four-five hunters apiece. The family farms will probably have one or two people hunting each one. And at least a couple of the smaller tracts will have somebody hunting them. That's 16 likely hunters on that 640 acres. With 15 does and 15 bucks, and the bucks can't have fawns. And let's say that at least part of these folks will realistically be letting most of the bucks walk and shooting a doe or two for meat to save the bucks that aren't "shooters."

Do the math. And keep screaming about coyotes eating up all the deer.

 

[PappyHoel]

I think it is one thing that folks don't really understand or think about enough. You always hear people wanting to lower the doe limit to two. They never think further than that.

The majority of Georgia has an average deer population of 25-30 per square mile, according to the latest info I could find in a quick search of the current deer management plan. If we go with 30 deer on 640 acres, that means roughly 15 does and 15 bucks. If that 640 acres is all in one club, and you have one hunter per hundred acres, you have six-seven hunters. If each hunter on that club kills one doe, about half the does on that land are now gone. If each hunter kills two does, which is fairly normal, you now have basically no does left. What's the population look like next year?

And people next year will be screaming that the coyotes ate all the deer. No they didn't- you did. And that's not even taking into account the deer on that property that actually were eaten by coyotes, run over by cars, or died from disease or old age.

Now, let's say that the 640 acres in question is a more realistic square mile: two 250-acre leases, two fifty-acre family farms, and a few smaller tracts of land. Each of those leases will probably have four-five hunters apiece. The family farms will probably have one or two people hunting each one. And at least a couple of the smaller tracts will have somebody hunting them. That's 16 likely hunters on that 640 acres. With 15 does and 15 bucks, and the bucks can't have fawns. And let's say that at least part of these folks will realistically be letting most of the bucks walk and shooting a doe or two for meat to save the bucks that aren't "shooters."

Do the math. And keep screaming about coyotes eating up all the deer.

Your post doesn't sell hunt club membership. Hunt club managers are more interested in selling and managing membership than they are about deer management.

Deer management costs $1200 vs hunter management which cost $600.

 

[GottaGetOutdoors]

I've seen a 30 acre tract you could kill all you wanted off of, but no one hunted the thousands of acres it borders.

Big difference between hunting a property vs. managing a property. It is a consumer vs. conservation mentality.

The consumer minded hunter tends to take more than his share with little regard for how it impacts the herd. I see guys who wear out a property and then move on to a new property to abuse. I call these "shoot out and get out" clubs.

Contrast that with the conservation minded hunter who wants to use the resource wisely to ensure long term sustainability. By his "giver" mentality, he tends to improve a property over time and will leave it in better shape than he finds it.

I too have seen the proverbial 30-acre tract that yields loads of deer every year. And I feel sorry for the neighboring landowner, because it comes at his expense. In the wildlife management world, we refer to that kind of club as the lowest hole in the bucket. Based on the notion that, if you want your bucket to hold more water, then start by plugging the lowest hole in the bucket. A landowner or club that wants to improve herd health on their land may identify the neighboring 30-acre "Kill 'em All" club as the lowest hole in the bucket. One way to plug that hole is to lease it or buy it. Happens all the time.

 

[davidhelmly]

Your post doesn't sell hunt club membership. Hunt club managers are more interested in selling and managing membership than they are about deer management.

Deer management costs $1200 vs hunter management which cost $600.

This post is so ridiculous it should be in one of the many trolling threads on the forum and not in a serious thought/fact producing thread.
Sounds like you’ve been talking to richie too much, complete ignorance!!

 

[XIronheadX]

12 or 13 hunters on 6 square miles. Less than 10 bucks, about 10 to 15 does a year. Year round greenery. You have to hunt around like minded people. And in the right location. Humans are only seen when you sign in. It's not cheap, but mud on boots is better than sand between toes.

 

[GottaGetOutdoors]

Here is a budget breakdown to lease 500 acres at $14/acre and form a new club. Let's say it has 10 acres in food plots and already has water/power hookup at camp. Here is rough cost breakdown and how it impacts dues:

Land rent = $7000
Insurance = $200
Water = $360 (avg $30/mo)
Electricity = $600 (avg $50/mo)
Food plots = $3000 (10 acres @ $300/ac for lime, fertilizer, seed, tractor costs)
Miscellaneous (gates, locks, gravel, camper setups, skinning rack, etc.) = $1000
-----------------------
TOTAL = $12,520 per year to operate the lease. Does not include feeders, cameras, and other amenities you may want.
Dues at 7 members (1/71 acres) = $1789/person
Dues at 5 members (1/100 acres = $2432/person
Dues at 3 members (1/166 acres) = $4173/person

 

[PappyHoel]

This post is so ridiculous it should be in one of the many trolling threads on the forum and not in a serious thought/fact producing thread.
Sounds like you’ve been talking to richie too much, complete ignorance!!

You call my post ignorant? What I posted is fact and I've been in that club for 8 years. Your post is ignorant.

I've read your posts here and you hunt in a different plain of reality than most hunters in Georgia. The fact remains clubs can't sell memberships unless they are at a certain price point. That price point sacrifices conservation for cheap club membership.

 

[Jim Boyd]

Ok guys - no arguing in my thread....

Are there poor managers? Yes.

Should potential clients be able to see it? Yes.

If the dues are $650 and the acreage per hunter is 50 or so, you have to know what you are getting into.


David does some of the finest managing I have ever seen and has proof that it works. It costs a lot and requires a ton of self control.


NCHB makes an argument that cannot be worked around, it is logic, pure and simple.


GGO laid out how much it costs and that is at only $14 / acre. Many leases are well north of this.

We have 850 acres in SC / 6 members and his figures are almost spot on. We have about 25 acres of tillable ground available to us so our plot costs run high.


Sooooooo, I do feel that we cannot overstate the importance of your hunter / acre ratio, PARTICULARLY if QDM is your goal.


QDM and trophy hunting are NOT the same thing, however - IMHO.

QDM is managing a property in a quality fashion - one that serves to provide great habitat and food for the deer and a value driven experience, typically for a more discriminating hunter.

It costs more - and people are willing to pay more for quality.

.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Ok guys - no arguing in my thread....

Are there poor managers? Yes.

Should potential clients be able to see it? Yes.

If the dues are $650 and the acreage per hunter is 50 or so, you have to know what you are getting into.


David does some of the finest managing I have ever seen and has proof that it works. It costs a lot and requires a ton of self control.


NCHB makes an argument that cannot be worked around, it is logic, pure and simple.


GGO laid out how much it costs and that is at only $14 / acre. Many leases are well north of this.

We have 850 acres in SC / 6 members and his figures are almost spot on. We have about 25 acres of tillable ground available to us so our plot costs run high.


Sooooooo, I do feel that we cannot overstate the importance of your hunter / acre ratio, PARTICULARLY if QDM is your goal.


QDM and trophy hunting are NOT the same thing, however - IMHO.

QDM is managing a property in a quality fashion - one that serves to provide great habitat and food for the deer and a value driven experience, typically for a more discriminating hunter.

It costs more - and people are willing to pay more for quality.

.

Thank you for pointing that out. I see so many folks that think they are taking care of "their herd" and doing the right thing by letting every buck walk that isn't a whopper and shooting a couple does apiece for meat. They are the good guys, they're practicing QDM!

Then they complain about their neighbors who don't "let 'em walk," and maybe shoot forkhorns instead of does for freezer meat. As my simple example pointed out, the "QDM" folks who think they are doing the right thing and managing their deer for health may actually be doing a lot more harm than Billy next door who puts a spike and a basket rack 8 in the freezer every year and leaves the does alone to breed.

But folks won't look at it from a realistic point of view, or listen to actual facts; because they know what they know. And the coyotes ate all their deer up in a few years no matter how much they managed them for "quality" bucks. It was Billy next door who shoots little buck's fault.

 

[davidhelmly]

Ok guys - no arguing in my thread....

Are there poor managers? Yes.

Should potential clients be able to see it? Yes.

If the dues are $650 and the acreage per hunter is 50 or so, you have to know what you are getting into.


David does some of the finest managing I have ever seen and has proof that it works. It costs a lot and requires a ton of self control.


NCHB makes an argument that cannot be worked around, it is logic, pure and simple.


GGO laid out how much it costs and that is at only $14 / acre. Many leases are well north of this.

We have 850 acres in SC / 6 members and his figures are almost spot on. We have about 25 acres of tillable ground available to us so our plot costs run high.


Sooooooo, I do feel that we cannot overstate the importance of your hunter / acre ratio, PARTICULARLY if QDM is your goal.


QDM and trophy hunting are NOT the same thing, however - IMHO.

QDM is managing a property in a quality fashion - one that serves to provide great habitat and food for the deer and a value driven experience, typically for a more discriminating hunter.

It costs more - and people are willing to pay more for quality.

.

Sorry Jim, you've got a great thread going here.

 

[XIronheadX]

It's all about $$$. They guy with $$ is going to build and create his own paradise. The guy without $$ is going to sit up in a tree waving at his buddies while declaring a war that sets of metal detectors for generations to come. Throw in everything between. In the end all the hunters died, and the deer did too. No opinions or complaints ever changed.

 

[Jim Boyd]

No apologies David!

We are all grown and while we all get frustrated at times, reason and patience should be the order of the day.

Many is the time I have written (or said) things I wished I could take back - and was not able to.


We still all want what you have ! (well, at least many of us do!)