Christians: 'Not All Like That'

[SemperFiDawg]

You should read the article. I went through all that trouble slaving over a hot copy&paste.

I read it Griz. My question to you regarding it is this: if you want to extrapolate homosexual behavior from animals to humans because it is "natural" are you OK with children helping their parents out performing oral sex as the monkeys in the article are ascribed to doing? Are you down with sex with you brother to strengthen your bonds as the lions are ascribed to do? If not, then why? If you subscribe to the notion that if an animal performs an act, then it's morally OK, how do you justify NOT condoning those behaviors among humans, especially since atheist hold that morality is relative to start with. Noted atheist Peter Singer realizes the logical hypocricy that comes with your views and he chooses not to be a hypocrit and cherry pick his morals, which is exactly why he doesn't condone beastiality, pedophelia nor any other act committed by animals. He realizes that if we are just another animal then, like Bullet said "some actions just can't be helped".
They are just natural after all. You can commit any degraded act you can think of and justify it based on the fact that you are after all, just an animal and it can't be helped. Additionally, who can judge you if morals are relative. Is this the world you really think should exist? Can you even begin to imagine the carnage mankind would visit among himself if everyone bought into this worldview. I can't. All the murders, genocides, sex crimes, etc. that have ever been committed would pale in comparison to that which would follow.

 

[bullethead]

I'm often amazed at the lengths atheist will go to to deny the fingerprints of God on their very being. Your last statement is an example of that.

Do you really realize the implications of making such a statement. It totally denies the presence of self control or morality of any type what so ever and gives an excuse for every single act imaginable no matter how cruel, vulgar or distasteful.

I'm glad you made the statement, because it accurately contrasts the difference between The Judeo-Christian view in which man, made in Gods image, is viewed as having infinite dignity and sanctity, and that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence whose actions "they just cannot help".

My statement does not deny the presence of self control or morality, it exemplifies them!!! We have them as a result of our own actions.

Your last statement is not backed up by any sort of fact at all. The end result is the same. I just eliminate one more excuse to come to the same conclusion. It is shown Atheists and whoever can and DO have actions that they are in total control of. It is proven every single second of every single day.
You cannot accept it and try to put a spin on it that just does not exist. You absolutely cannot begin to show that anyone who does not believe in your God is any less of a self controlled human being than you are. Do us a favor and stop making ludicrous statements that only make sense in your mind and then try to pass them off as one of ours.
The only finger prints in any of this belong to man.

 

[bullethead]

I read it Griz. My question to you regarding it is this: if you want to extrapolate homosexual behavior from animals to humans because it is "natural" are you OK with children helping their parents out performing oral sex as the monkeys in the article are ascribed to doing? Are you down with sex with you brother to strengthen your bonds as the lions are ascribed to do? If not, then why? If you subscribe to the notion that if an animal performs an act, then it's morally OK, how do you justify NOT condoning those behaviors among humans, especially since atheist hold that morality is relative to start with. Noted atheist Peter Singer realizes the logical hypocricy that comes with your views and he chooses not to be a hypocrit and cherry pick his morals, which is exactly why he doesn't condone beastiality, pedophelia nor any other act committed by animals. He realizes that if we are just another animal then, like Bullet said "some actions just can't be helped".
They are just natural after all. You can commit any degraded act you can think of and justify it based on the fact that you are after all, just an animal and it can't be helped. Additionally, who can judge you if morals are relative. Is this the world you really think should exist? Can you even begin to imagine the carnage mankind would visit among himself if everyone bought into this worldview. I can't. All the murders, genocides, sex crimes, etc. that have ever been committed would pale in comparison to that which would follow.

I have got news for you SFD, when humans were in their earliest forms murders, genocides, sex crimes, etc were happening more frequently than they are now despite you thinking that man would have been somehow more closer to God's purest intent for us. Except then, none had the bad names for it when it was going on....it just was.
Humans have gotten educated enough to make decisions of what will and what will not be tolerated, but no matter how hard you try to put words in our mouth about how "WE" think the entire world should be chaotic and carefree, the facts do not back you up. Even still in 2013 many places and people exist on this planet that do things much differently than we are accustomed to. Things go on in this world that we see has unthinkable but where they take place these things are normal. You cannot fathom such things because they go against everything you need your God to stand for so you try to pretend they do not exist or think that people that do not believe as you do in some made up deity cannot share the same morals and feelings as you do and try to blame us that we condone such actions. You have proof right here on these boards that people who do not believe in a God, or do not believe as you do are just like you in more ways than one. You absolutely cannot accept that we have every single quality that makes us a great human being so you try to paint us in a bad way. It is not working for you. Give it up. Stop the God excuses that have no merit. Stop the assertions based off of your own thoughts with zero effort to check the facts first. Why do you totally disregard the answers you get for the questions you ask? You asked for examples and when given 1500 of them, you change the criteria saying the answers didn't answer what you have now changed the question to.
Enough is enough already. There is no sense of you participating if you will not accept anything that is proven to you with factual research.....especially when YOU ask for it in the first place.

 

[WaltL1]

I have got news for you SFD, when humans were in their earliest forms murders, genocides, sex crimes, etc were happening more frequently than they are now despite you thinking that man would have been somehow more closer to God's purest intent for us. Except then, none had the bad names for it when it was going on....it just was.
Humans have gotten educated enough to make decisions of what will and what will not be tolerated, but no matter how hard you try to put words in our mouth about how "WE" think the entire world should be chaotic and carefree, the facts do not back you up. Even still in 2013 many places and people exist on this planet that do things much differently than we are accustomed to. Things go on in this world that we see has unthinkable but where they take place these things are normal. You cannot fathom such things because they go against everything you need your God to stand for so you try to pretend they do not exist or think that people that do not believe as you do in some made up deity cannot share the same morals and feelings as you do and try to blame us that we condone such actions. You have proof right here on these boards that people who do not believe in a God, or do not believe as you do are just like you in more ways than one. You absolutely cannot accept that we have every single quality that makes us a great human being so you try to paint us in a bad way. It is not working for you. Give it up. Stop the God excuses that have no merit. Stop the assertions based off of your own thoughts with zero effort to check the facts first. Why do you totally disregard the answers you get for the questions you ask? You asked for examples and when given 1500 of them, you change the criteria saying the answers didn't answer what you have now changed the question to.
Enough is enough already. There is no sense of you participating if you will not accept anything that is proven to you with factual research.....especially when YOU ask for it in the first place.

Bullet you hit the nail on the head. But I would like to add one more thing for you and the others to consider. Its not that there is no sense in him participating its that there is no sense in US participating, for all the reasons you just iterated. He has proven over and over he has zero interest in learning ANYTHING. He is simply getting off on having us answer questions so he can deny them so he can have us provide more answers so he can deny them so he can ask more questions so we provide more answers....... No more and no less. He doesn't care if we give him facts because he's not interested in facts. Its the same in every one of his threads. I for one am leaving him to his world of dishonesty and ignorance. I hope all of you guys at least consider the same. We are being the people who just cant stop themselves from slowing down and staring at the wreck on the highway.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

My statement does not deny the presence of self control or morality, it exemplifies them!!! We have them as a result of our own actions.

Your last statement is not backed up by any sort of fact at all. The end result is the same. I just eliminate one more excuse to come to the same conclusion. It is shown Atheists and whoever can and DO have actions that they are in total control of. It is proven every single second of every single day.
You cannot accept it and try to put a spin on it that just does not exist. You absolutely cannot begin to show that anyone who does not believe in your God is any less of a self controlled human being than you are. Do us a favor and stop making ludicrous statements that only make sense in your mind and then try to pass them off as one of ours.
The only finger prints in any of this belong to man.

I'm not the one who made the statement

 

[SemperFiDawg]

My statement does not deny the presence of self control or morality, it exemplifies them!!! We have them as a result of our own actions.

.

Really. Animals behaving in base ways exemplifies self control and morality?

Your last statement is not backed up by any sort of fact at all. The end result is the same. I just eliminate one more excuse to come to the same conclusion. It is shown Atheists and whoever can and DO have actions that they are in total control of. It is proven every single second of every single day.
You cannot accept it and try to put a spin on it that just does not exist. You absolutely cannot begin to show that anyone who does not believe in your God is any less of a self controlled human being than you are. Do us a favor and stop making ludicrous statements that only make sense in your mind and then try to pass them off as one of ours.
The only finger prints in any of this belong to man.

Great line of reasoning. When man behaves well, it's because he's an animal. When man behaves savagely it's because he's an animal. Yeah, That's logical

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I have got news for you SFD, when humans were in their earliest forms murders, genocides, sex crimes, etc were happening more frequently than they are now despite you thinking that man would have been somehow more closer to God's purest intent for us. Except then, none had the bad names for it when it was going on....it just was.
Humans have gotten educated enough to make decisions of what will and what will not be tolerated, but no matter how hard you try to put words in our mouth about how "WE" think the entire world should be chaotic and carefree, the facts do not back you up. Even still in 2013 many places and people exist on this planet that do things much differently than we are accustomed to. Things go on in this world that we see has unthinkable but where they take place these things are normal. You cannot fathom such things because they go against everything you need your God to stand for so you try to pretend they do not exist or think that people that do not believe as you do in some made up deity cannot share the same morals and feelings as you do and try to blame us that we condone such actions. You have proof right here on these boards that people who do not believe in a God, or do not believe as you do are just like you in more ways than one. You absolutely cannot accept that we have every single quality that makes us a great human being so you try to paint us in a bad way. It is not working for you. Give it up. Stop the God excuses that have no merit. Stop the assertions based off of your own thoughts with zero effort to check the facts first. Why do you totally disregard the answers you get for the questions you ask? You asked for examples and when given 1500 of them, you change the criteria saying the answers didn't answer what you have now changed the question to.
Enough is enough already. There is no sense of you participating if you will not accept anything that is proven to you with factual research.....especially when YOU ask for it in the first place.

Listen. I asserted the is no evolutionary basis for homosexuality. Evolutionary theory holds as its most basic tenet that the species must survive. Homosexuality is directly contradictory to that thesis. No examples can be provided to prove otherwise, so what do you guys do? You totally deny the premise of evolution and attempt to make the case that homosexuality is morally just, because it's natural; citing as evidence animal behavior. When the fallacies of that are pointed out to you, you cry that I am denying the evidence when in fact none has been presented regarding the original assertion in the first place, and the lunacy of your assertion has been exposed.

It's not rocket science. You want to prove evolutionary theory supports homosexuality the present a case wher two same sex animals produce an offspring. It's that simple.

 

[660griz]

Listen. I asserted the is no evolutionary basis for homosexuality. Evolutionary theory holds as its most basic tenet that the species must survive.

Yes. Pretty much.

Homosexuality is directly contradictory to that thesis.

No it is not. Once again. Read the articles as to the reason for homosexual activity in animals.

No examples can be provided to prove otherwise,

Yes they have. Once again....read!

You totally deny the premise of evolution and attempt to make the case that homosexuality is morally just, because it's natural;

This doesn't make any sense. Pretty much all things NATURAL are a product of evolution/adaptation, etc.

citing as evidence animal behavior.

You asked for examples remember.

When the fallacies of that are pointed out to you,

You did not point out fallacies. You stick to one narrow minded view that if they don't produce offspring it can't be part of evolution. YES IT CAN! The reasons are in the articles. Binocular vision is a part of evolution and has nothing to do with reproducing.

you cry that I am denying the evidence when in fact none has been presented regarding the original assertion in the first place, and the lunacy of your assertion has been exposed.

I don't cry that you are denying the evidence. I don't think you have even looked at the evidence.

It's not rocket science. You want to prove evolutionary theory supports homosexuality the present a case wher two same sex animals produce an offspring. It's that simple.

Once again, read the articles. You will see reasons why homosexuality helped the species carry on.

 

[WaltL1]

I have got news for you SFD, when humans were in their earliest forms murders, genocides, sex crimes, etc were happening more frequently than they are now despite you thinking that man would have been somehow more closer to God's purest intent for us. Except then, none had the bad names for it when it was going on....it just was.
Humans have gotten educated enough to make decisions of what will and what will not be tolerated, but no matter how hard you try to put words in our mouth about how "WE" think the entire world should be chaotic and carefree, the facts do not back you up. Even still in 2013 many places and people exist on this planet that do things much differently than we are accustomed to. Things go on in this world that we see has unthinkable but where they take place these things are normal. You cannot fathom such things because they go against everything you need your God to stand for so you try to pretend they do not exist or think that people that do not believe as you do in some made up deity cannot share the same morals and feelings as you do and try to blame us that we condone such actions. You have proof right here on these boards that people who do not believe in a God, or do not believe as you do are just like you in more ways than one. You absolutely cannot accept that we have every single quality that makes us a great human being so you try to paint us in a bad way. It is not working for you. Give it up. Stop the God excuses that have no merit. Stop the assertions based off of your own thoughts with zero effort to check the facts first. Why do you totally disregard the answers you get for the questions you ask? You asked for examples and when given 1500 of them, you change the criteria saying the answers didn't answer what you have now changed the question to. Enough is enough already. There is no sense of you participating if you will not accept anything that is proven to you with factual research.....especially when YOU ask for it in the first place.

Its not just the questions that change

It occurred to me today that we often attempt to offer evidence of God based on positive concepts. I would like to offer an evidence of God based on the concept of evil. Christianity holds the position that mankind is depraved. There are many verses in the Bible to support this doctrine, one of which is Jeremiah 17:9 which states
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can understand it?"

I'm glad you made the statement, because it accurately contrasts the difference between The Judeo-Christian view in which man, made in Gods image, is viewed as having infinite dignity and sanctity, and that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence

And this -

Christianity holds the position that mankind is depraved

.
Makes this the best joke Ive heard in a while

that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence

 

[TripleXBullies]

Listen. I asserted the is no evolutionary basis for homosexuality. Evolutionary theory holds as its most basic tenet that the species must survive. Homosexuality is directly contradictory to that thesis. No examples can be provided to prove otherwise, so what do you guys do? You totally deny the premise of evolution and attempt to make the case that homosexuality is morally just, because it's natural; citing as evidence animal behavior. When the fallacies of that are pointed out to you, you cry that I am denying the evidence when in fact none has been presented regarding the original assertion in the first place, and the lunacy of your assertion has been exposed.

It's not rocket science. You want to prove evolutionary theory supports homosexuality the present a case wher two same sex animals produce an offspring. It's that simple.

I gave you one. Black swans....

 

[TripleXBullies]

Interesting... Male homosexuality in Black swans seems pretty regular.. They still need the females to reproduce but they run the female off once the egg is laid and the male pair incubate and protect it.... and those eggs are more likely to hatch, likely because the male pairs can guard the nest more effectively.

Is that an evolutionary benefit to homosexuality???? Or bisexuality at least.

Here it is.

 

[TripleXBullies]

Its not just the questions that change
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And this -
.
Makes this the best joke Ive heard in a while

It will be interesting to see how he responds to the evidence (PROOF) of him doing the things he says we're doing.

 

[bullethead]

I'm not the one who made the statement

Did you use someone's statement as your own, or is this yours????

The Judeo-Christian view in which man, made in Gods image, is viewed as having infinite dignity and sanctity, and that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence whose actions "they just cannot help".

 

[bullethead]

Walt, Triple X and Griz....all excellent and accurate observations and points.
Walt, I am going to take your advice.

 

[TripleXBullies]

I say we give him the chance to respond to what was been laid out in front of him this morning... If we get what we expect... ignore...

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Yes. Pretty much. No it is not. Once again. Read the articles as to the reason for homosexual activity in animals. Yes they have. Once again....read! This doesn't make any sense. Pretty much all things NATURAL are a product of evolution/adaptation, etc. You asked for examples remember. You did not point out fallacies. You stick to one narrow minded view that if they don't produce offspring it can't be part of evolution. YES IT CAN! The reasons are in the articles. Binocular vision is a part of evolution and has nothing to do with reproducing. I don't cry that you are denying the evidence. I don't think you have even looked at the evidence.

Once again, read the articles. You will see reasons why homosexuality helped the species carry on.

I have read them Griz. In each and every case the authors cite, they invariably give an example of homosexuality then attribute it to some gain that is made. I get that.
However it is just that. Attributing a PERCEIVED gain to an act. That's is the very best that can be said. It is not proof by any stretch of the imagination that homosexual behavior among animals produces offspring. That in itself flies in the face of reason.

Additionally, if you take the very best that can be said regarding the articles; that homosexual behavior does in fact exist among animals, you cannot extrapolate that concept to mankind on a moral basis basis in that since it is natural, it must also be morally acceptable, without also allowing every other act animals commit as morally acceptable. Do you see the fallacy of that line of reasoning?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I gave you one. Black swans....

Dude you are grasping. No two male black swans have ever produced an egg. Per wiki, and yes it's that basic
"They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs." Is that the behavior you are suggesting we can morally extrapolate to mankind?

 

[TripleXBullies]

Additionally, if you take the very best that can be said regarding the articles; that homosexual behavior does in fact exist among animals, you cannot extrapolate that concept to mankind on a moral basis basis in that since it is natural, it must also be morally acceptable, without also allowing every other act animals commit as morally acceptable. Do you see the fallacy of that line of reasoning?

Some of those other things have been acceptable. We've decided that they no longer are. And homosexuality may go that way too. I'm glad my parents didn't expect anything "unusual" from me as a child.... But it's just that, UNUSUAL. If it wasn't unusual, it would be usual, normal and accepted and no one would bat an eye. Again, I feel that those types of things would be morally wrong yes. And I would judge someone or some group if they were ok with it because it didn't match my own morals. I wouldn't say that it's permissible because it's not my usual. I would say that they came to their conclusion in exactly the same we've come to ours.

 

[TripleXBullies]

Dude you are grasping. No two male black swans have ever produced an egg. Per wiki, and yes it's that basic
"They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs." Is that the behavior you are suggesting we can morally extrapolate to mankind?

That isn't anything with regards to morals. It's an example where homosexuality can benefit species. I'm not going to go get in a homosexual relationship and raise my daughter. It's just an example of what you asked for.



More of the same stuff sfd... You ask for something, get it, then say it's not what you asked for.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Its not just the questions that change
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And this -
.
Makes this the best joke Ive heard in a while

Infinite dignity and sanctity speak to mans innate worth/value.

Depravity speaks to his actual nature/tendency


No contradiction at all. And isn't it wonderful that God can love us despite the disparity between our intended design and our failed potential. His love bridges that gap for all who ask.


I can see how you got confused though in cutting and pasting from different topics in separate threads. Maybe you're too focused on trying to prove me wrong to think clearly, or maybe you thought you could simply misrepresent the facts in this juvenile attempt to disparage me, or maybe you just dont understand the concepts being discussed. Either way, why don't you just stick to simple insults. At least you're adequate at it.