The Enlightenment

[ambush80]

So at what point do we separate the “Charles Manson’s” or any other extremist from their claims?

Most of us have enough common sense to realize the difference in a tool and the individual(s) using them.

Those with an agenda such as the left, can’t. And what I mean by that, gun control would be an analogy to think on.

But back to my question, it appears you have a formed opinion on the “negative effects”, which is fine, but no real source to substantiate it?

I like this analogy of the "tool". I see religion like a stone axe. You can still chop a tree down with it but not so well. We can also make an analogy about the type of person that when faced with the problem of chopping down a tree will choose the stone axe. There may be many reasons why they choose the stone axe that we could talk about.

 

[Spotlite]

I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee. True friends I have do not fill one hand. They have been my best friends for over 30 years. Yet I can say that I know and am friendly with 100's.

I am positive that the lack of a spiritual life has not had a shred of negative impact on me in any way, shape or form. If anything I could make a case that I am a better person without it.
I know many a holy roller that has not led the life I have. I am pretty confident in saying that as far as being an honest, productive, trustworthy husband, Father and member of society I would rank in the upper echelon. No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me. I know a lot of spiritual people who can't touch that....what is their excuse if in fact spiritual has ANYTHING to do with it???

Now, and I say this sincerely. There are many people just like me, and many more better and many more worse and their spiritual involvement varies as much as the range of people do.
My point....spirituality has nothing to do with anything universally. If it did, EVERY spiritual person would be a just a notch below the source where they think that spirit comes from. And, flatley .....history and action shows they are not.

And I would agree with you 100% bullethead on most of your post as it’s exactly my point when it comes to blaming religion. The only portion I’m not in agreement with is your point that “spirituality has nothing to do with”.....I respect the opinion though.

In a nutshell, a man jumping off of a building claiming he’s an airplane is and never was an airplane regardless of how much he really believed it.

 

[ambush80]

Manson led his way into preaching and convinced his followers that he was the Man’s son.

That's right. He made up his own religion that people blindly followed because he intuitively knew that is is a powerful way to control people and get them to do bad things. It can make them do good things, too. But there are good reasons to do good things. No need to do good things for bad reasons.

 

[Spotlite]

That's right. He made up his own religion that people blindly followed because he intuitively knew that is is a powerful way to control people and get them to do bad things. It can make them do good things, too. But there are good reasons to do good things. No need to do good things for bad reasons.

And most of our Muslims pals disagree with flying planes into buildings and believe as the rest of the world does, it’s not good, and it’s not spiritual.

 

[NCHillbilly]

That's right. He made up his own religion that people blindly followed because he intuitively knew that is is a powerful way to control people and get them to do bad things. It can make them do good things, too. But there are good reasons to do good things. No need to do good things for bad reasons.

Yes. He formed a religion that he used to control young people. Isolation, group immersion, and constant preaching soon convinced his followers that the Beatles were sending him messages through their music related to his instructions in his role as a savior during the coming race war, and his role as ruler in the aftermath of it.

The same tactics used by most organized religions, just a more undiluted version. Yet, every one of those kids believed him and his message just as much as any other religious person believes in his own religion.

 

[ambush80]

And most of our Muslims pals disagree with flying planes into buildings and believe as the rest of the world does, it’s not good, and it’s not spiritual.

That's because they were convinced NOT to take the words of their book literally. They were convinced by rational, secular argument. The farther people get away from fundamentalist religious belief the better they get. That's the scale tipping in the direction that I've been talking about.

 

[ambush80]

Yes. He formed a religion that he used to control young people. Isolation, group immersion, and constant preaching soon convinced his followers that the Beatles were sending him messages through their music related to his instructions in his role as a savior during the coming race war, and his role as ruler in the aftermath of it.

The same tactics used by most organized religions, just a more undiluted version. Yet, every one of those kids believed him and his message just as much as any other religious person believes in his own religion.

They believed that "He was blind but now can see". Who can argue against that?

 

[bullethead]

And I would agree with you 100% bullethead on most of your post as it’s exactly my point when it comes to blaming religion. The only portion I’m not in agreement with is your point that “spirituality has nothing to do with”.....I respect the opinion though.

In a nutshell, a man jumping off of a building claiming he’s an airplane is and never was an airplane regardless of how much he really believed it.

A man claiming the spirit of a god makes him a better person is on the same level as the man who believes a shrunken head makes him a better person. They both share the same connection in the believe factor. Believe is not Truth even though it is a motivator.

 

[Spotlite]

That's because they were convinced NOT to take the words of their book literally. They were convinced by rational, secular argument. The farther people get away from fundamentalist religious belief the better they get. That's the scale tipping in the direction that I've been talking about.

And everything you’re describing is a people issue. Religion doesn’t have anything to do with anything other than being an abused tool.

 

[bullethead]

That's right. He made up his own religion that people blindly followed because he intuitively knew that is is a powerful way to control people and get them to do bad things. It can make them do good things, too. But there are good reasons to do good things. No need to do good things for bad reasons.

And in their mind, they were doing good for him because they were his wishes and they wanted to please him.

 

[bullethead]

And most of our Muslims pals disagree with flying planes into buildings and believe as the rest of the world does, it’s not good, and it’s not spiritual.

That does not account for the ones that are moved by the spirit, or were commanded by their God...or at least say that. How do you prove them wrong?

 

[Spotlite]

A man claiming the spirit of a god makes him a better person is on the same level as the man who believes a shrunken head makes him a better person. They both share the same connection in the believe factor. Believe is not Truth even though it is a motivator.

I’d agree to an extent. Being religious or searching for something spiritual in your life doesn’t require one to be in an emotional state of distress or in need of mental assistance / evaluation - such as the case for needing a shrink.

That being said, being a Christian is not a requirement to being a good man. There are a lot of very good men that are non religious.

 

[Spotlite]

That does not account for the ones that are moved by the spirit, or were commanded by their God...or at least say that. How do you prove them wrong?

I think the many that say God isn’t working that way speaks volumes.

I don’t know if we can prove them wrong. But does that make them right?

 

[Spotlite]

Yes. He formed a religion that he used to control young people. Isolation, group immersion, and constant preaching soon convinced his followers that the Beatles were sending him messages through their music related to his instructions in his role as a savior during the coming race war, and his role as ruler in the aftermath of it.

The same tactics used by most organized religions, just a more undiluted version. Yet, every one of those kids believed him and his message just as much as any other religious person believes in his own religion.

And that’s the reality, they really believe what they’re hearing and instructed to do.

 

[bullethead]

I’d agree to an extent. Being religious or searching for something spiritual in your life doesn’t require one to be in an emotional state of distress or in need of mental assistance / evaluation - such as the case for needing a shrink.

That being said, being a Christian is not a requirement to being a good man. There are a lot of very good men that are non religious.

I agree. Not a requirement for needing professional help. But it is amazing how many religious people are getting it.
Religious, Specifically Religious, Not religious. All in the same boat. So is "spiritually" really an advantage?

 

[bullethead]

I think the many that say God isn’t working that way speaks volumes.

I don’t know if we can prove them wrong. But does that make them right?

We are them. They are we.
Thats the point.
No advantage.
No real difference.

 

[ambush80]

We are them. They are we.
Thats the point.
No advantage.
No real difference.

...hence the uselessness of knowledge based on revelation.

 

[Spotlite]

We are them. They are we.
Thats the point.
No advantage.
No real difference.

Agreed, just curious how it’s deternined a religious issue if “we”.....

 

[Spotlite]

I agree. Not a requirement for needing professional help. But it is amazing how many religious people are getting it.
Religious, Specifically Religious, Not religious. All in the same boat. So is "spiritually" really an advantage?

Of course it is. I’ve read some info regarding studies that show religious people are healthier / happier. Will try to find.

But my main focus that hadn’t been addressed by Ambush is the negative effects that a belief in God, heaven or......is a net negative on society and the individual.

 

[ambush80]

Of course it is. I’ve read some info regarding studies that show religious people are healthier / happier. Will try to find.

But my main focus that hadn’t been addressed by Ambush is the negative effects that a belief in God, heaven or......is a net negative on society and the individual.

As I said before, we can talk about the good things that religion can produce. My assertion is that the bad things outweigh the good. You wanted to know what I think the bad things are and I and others told you. There's a short circuit somewhere in our dialogue. I hope we can identify it.

I have to admit that my patience is wearing a bit but I'll have one more go at this. It might be that I'm not expressing myself well.

This is as straight forward as I can make it. I don't think I can do a better job than this. The belief in Heaven or Paradise is clearly connected to the type of religious fervor that causes people to fly planes into buildings. I have observed that believing that God leads the believer to misidentify the causes and definitions of evil behavior resulting in bad "solutions" to "problems" like Homosexual Conversion therapy. There are other examples I gave that included politics and science. Did I not do a good job of identifying the problems with belief in revelation?