strothershwacker
Senior Member
In one sentence ?
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What's the purpose of the Church in one sentence?
- Thread starter gordon 2
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Israel
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We have a clever enemy. He knows every "weak spot" in man far better than any of us yet do in terms of lusting after position. And by position it is not always clearly apparent to what position such lust is aimed. Any soft spot of entry will do for injection of infection.
Though the end always be the same; a usurpation (or attempt at it) by rebellion, the gain of entrance can be any number of hosting portals that at first may seem too common, too even reasonable, too even innocuous, some even (God forbid!)...beneficial.
Before we jump "hundreds of years" (God forbid we think we owe anything to what may seem lengthy history(s)!) Why don't we simple ask "How did Paul know that upon his departure grievous wolves would enter?" How was his seeing such that disclosed and disposed him to such knowledge and warning?
When we read...do we read? When we are commanded, are we under command? Why did Jesus single out the Centurion for having so great faith? When a thing written says "He who has ears to hear let him hear what the spirit says to the churches"...do we hear?
How could, and why would Paul so denounce any and all partisanship as to himself, Peter, or Apollos? And what was the "soft spot" of entrance there except the seeming (and mere) voicing of preference? Were any, as they said "of Paul?" Of Apollos? Of Cephas?
Paul lays that thinking to waste. "You can't be "of" what you think and say you are because none of these gave themselves for you!" Oh, you may think it, you may say it, but it is profoundly...lie. Tripped up by simple...preference, and then letting it "have its way".
Am I "allowed" to prefer hamburgers? But what is wrought when invited to a dinner and only hot dogs are being served. And I then (thinking it my "right") make my preferences plain?
I once told a man with a wandering heart to stop despising his wife, that dire consequences would follow. "What!?" came the reply, "I don't hate her, or despise her"...no doubt, all things considered, he imagined himself sufficiently kind to her!
Of course he didn't see or know. He just liked more slender and (to him) better looking single girls. To him it did not mean he was despising his wife...just preferring others. I mean "what's wrong with falling for ones preferences?"
And, of course, taken to the fundamental it is despising Christ. God's manifest order in all. But this man had yet to learn of the Seer of all hidden intents and motives of the heart is no myth, even though he had "heard" the gospel many times. Frankly, he had no idea he was where he was, and where headed. There remains ample help to him to find rejoicing and gratitude to God and for all God has given him, but till then...
What did Paul understand? What did Jesus say? Will "the world" and all of what is of it...become more kindly disposed toward Jesus Christ? How come we can read the weather but not the times?
Shall I be unkind to say to those who boast of "how large is the church! How many are "christians" throughout the world...see how "big we have become!".
These matters are often advanced among what are called atheists or unbelievers in silly hope of some persuasion. As though saying "you reject the Christ I preach...but look, look! Can so many others also be stupid and wrong as you say I am to you?" Doesn't this mean there must be "something to it?"
It only shows one thing. That man's foundation (which is no foundation at all) is in resort to a thing of no consequence at all. But he doesn't know it any better than the man despising his wife.
"Why shouldn't it be of utmost comfort to me of the many I am among?" I like size! I like to know I'm not alone! Yet, how alone is such a man, not even knowing? "My "reason" for being a christian...is supported by so many!"
Let him read of David's numbering of the people. "How much strength do I have?", and see what God then does with the man "counting on". (and no less to those upon which he had been counting, just so...one man [which man? David? You? I?] might learn, and no less, be an example)
Oh, yes, men hate having their own preferences exposed to ridicule. God will deal with this in the secret place first, but no matter, the man will either heed there, or he will not.
"Little children keep yourselves from idols" to the novice may mean a thing almost laughable "I don't (and won't) bow down to statues!" or "Surely I already know what idols are!".
To another it may mean "Why are you checking your 401K? Do you want to see how "secure" you are?" or "Why are you remembering how much money you gave to that widow or in the offering plate".
Paul was not blind in discerning what would quickly come to fill what appeared the "power" vacuum, authority vacuum to be made seemingly present in his departure.
I'm convinced he could easily look out...even then in the congregation, for what was chomping at the bit for a taste of what they coveted "about him".
At every turn Jesus has known, and specifically known about me of covetousness. Do I heed? God knows.
That's all fine. A man will be an example, it is inescapable. Expression of what is within can never not come out. Whether men recognize it is one thing. That God always knows, is quite another. (This specifically addresses the "good" and "bad" of appearances) For with one eye we may read "there is nothing hid except to be revealed", and with another find Holy fear and Godly sorrow to repentance.
"A terrible thing happened today at the meeting of the church"
"A wonderful thing happened today at the meeting of the church"
"What?"
"Well, when Ananais and Saphira showed up... They got killed."
"Well, when Ananais and Saphira showed up...the Holy Spirit manifested the power of Christ."
Who is Peter in the story as we read? (of such things as to be examples for us)
Who is Ananais and Saphira as we read?
Oh...I know my preference!
But here's the thing if in the knowing of my preference (as God knows all my preference)
He also knows very well a man who is more than slightly given to wanting to appear as "giving all for Christ" among the congregation, seeming perhaps the most devoted, or at least among them, or most profoundly affected. The man in love with images, and chiefly his own. He very much has a preference in mind when viewing himself.
Such a man is definitely loathe to hear "Stop despising Christ!" till he is made glad to hear "Those whom I love I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore, and repent".
But he, no more nor less than any other, can withstand the Word of the Lord.
His preferences mean less than nothing.
He can only see and know what he is allowed.
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SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
That was awesome. It moved me to tears. God Bless y'all.
To "... those who love God: those called according to His purpose." (Rm. 8:28), there can be no greater joy than to perceive, however dimly, the glory of God.
There is a, or probably more than one, more systematic and theological answer to most of what you have said; however, it, or they, are equally subject to the same condition.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
In short, it's allllllll good, we just don't see it at the time and when we don't/can't, we miss out on understanding/seeing the miraculous that happens everyday all around us. The apostles saw Christ crucified, wept and mourned and were filled with despair.
Had they just trusted, they would have been pained at his pain, but KNEW God would use it to preform a miracle, and his mightiest one at that. There would have never been the fear and despair. It wasn't until they saw the miracle of him risen that they understood and had faith. Pain and suffering are the ONLY seeds from which miracles sprout. Witnessing and experiencing pain and suffering is a litmus test for our faith. Do we see it and say "I wonder what miracle will become of this?" or do we say "How could God allow such to happen?" The difference will determine if we have true PEACE that is borne of rock solid faith, or if we are shaken like a reed in the wind. We may never see some of the miracles that are borne from the seeds of pain and suffering this side of Heaven, but I absolutely KNOW that regardless of whether I ever see them or not, they will come to fruition for the glory of God.
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gordon 2
Senior Member
Very interesting. It's all good. Good and bad is all good. Reads like Buddhist philosophy to me. So the errors of the Church, which have brought significant suffering on generations ( bad) in some cases, are really to God's glory regardless that Christians disregarded the Golden Rule as to neighbor because they were staging for the miraculous?
And so the behaviors of Christians, good or bad are equal regard God's glory. A good Christian knows to roll with the punch, rope a dope and is to keep in mind to pace for several rounds? It is in fact a test of faith. We Christians are like Jobs in as much as he is to God's glory.
If this is what you mean,I'm a bit disoriented as to how you can come to say this.
In the old testament narratives, in Kings perhaps, bad kings killed bad kings and it was counted that this glorified God, because bad kings were warned by prophets of their outcomes for being "bad". God justly could say I told you that you idol worshipers will be killed off and your people wasted and sent into slavery, your temples burned, you cities and towns destroyed, etc... And when these came to past it glorified God, as is often the case in the old testament.
In the old testament bad people bump themselves off, bad people get murdered by bad people, they get "wacked" by their own kind and God knowing how this works and tells them. When it happens... it justifies God.
On the other hand good people are afforded better outcomes than bad people. God ever keeps a remnant of people He likes as being good , even when they have turned on him. But generally good people as long as they stay good, or capable of repentance, have good outcomes and this is to the glory of God. We say they are in His favor and trust.
But is this the case with Christians whereby we claim that in our generation rain falls equally on the good and the bad? When all of heaven rejoices is it because a bad person sins, so because that person or his offspring will be the future platforms of salvation, or that by evil they test saints as if to separate their ore from their dross?
Or am I too ignorant to see that some saints have a special perspective somewhere else... to which I have no access presently, that even in the Church for example bad behavior is really to God's glory and many so ignorant as I cannot yet see it that the suffering it causes is to God's glory?
If this is the reasoning of many, I can see why the many would cheer the reign of some of our bad kings-- know that after all suffering, even suffering, and the bad king, it is all good.
Darn being a Christian is sometimes like being a Buddhist! All is good.
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Israel
BANNED
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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gordon 2
Senior Member
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Amen
Amen
StriperAddict
Senior Member
I'd say such a one declaring this must have lived a sheltered existence. Unless speaking of a final destination ?? then yes, those in Christ have a glorious outcome indeed.
It's the habit of God from His person to cause all things "however defined bad or good" to WORK together for good ... without Himself being the AUTHOR of those things. Sure, that last part will get me in trouble with the God causers, those that attribute God with evil "just because "He CAN!"" Ugh! Yeah, go and forget faith, PRAYER and soul choices to our hurt. >groan<
On to point with Rom 8 and God taking our worst and using for greater good. He's the only one who can do that.
The blessing of that Romans 8:28 verse is that even in the worst of the worst, grace and good comes fourth. Sidebar ... this obviously does NOT excuse the wrongs!
What is missing from our own understanding is the God side. Us, we have to "fix" right away, or worse condemn the wrongdoer, or even "THAT whole evil city!", and miss that God just might send redemption there. Aren't we called ambassadors (ministers) of reconciliation? (2 Cor 5:11-21)
Wasn't Nineveh spared by the hesitant preaching of an angry prophet coated in whale digestive liquid?? C'mon! Them dag blasted Ninevites likely killed friends & family !!
And so our meager first look at evil usually has us side with the justice troop, certainly God will use them to avenge the wickedness. Ahhh, then grace comes to disarm our thinking, though we kick and scream along the way to the big reveal, maybe.
Eyes open beloved. God at work during rioting and looting today? Repeat, He's NOT causing the "thing", but causing ALL things ... to WORK for the good to those who love Him.
Help my nearsightedness Lord
