Is my atheist dad in heaven?

[WaltL1]

And, at least in most cases here, when someone tries to point out that the thing is being evaluated by its abuse, they are denigrated for that.
....

I think that's just a fact of life. One can do 10 things right but what gets noticed is the 1 thing they do wrong.
But....just like a regular business, if you employ "representatives" you run the risk of them representing you in a negative way.

 

[hummerpoo]

I think that's just a fact of life. One can do 10 things right but what gets noticed is the 1 thing they do wrong.
But....just like a regular business, if you employ "representatives" you run the risk of them representing you in a negative way.

In business you fire them, New Testament teaching is to excommunicate them, at a time when excommunication would not cleanse the Body (tribalism), it was necessary to kill them to accomplish the required purpose. Maybe society has moved so far backwards that they will once again have to be killed. That hinges on those outside more than on those inside. — Just thinkin'.

 

[welderguy]

Both Christians and muslims claim to be operating with the authority of the same deity. Both groups have at different times committed atrocities because of that belief. That’s not a stereotype that’s a historical fact. Surely you can see the potential danger in such beliefs.

I see the history, and even the potential of future atrocities, but a more honest, individual assessment is needed. Not just throwing a blanket judgement over religion as a whole.
Ambush said I was dangerous, and I still don't understand what caused him to think that.(as far as me individually)

 

[welderguy]

I think you confuse someone disagreeing with you with someone attacking and completely devaluing you. They are different things.

I hope so. As I stated, I may have misinterpreted.

 

[Geezer Ray]

Doesn’t he want everyone in heaven?

The answer to this question is YES, but, you have a part to play also.

 

[Geezer Ray]

Both Christians and muslims claim to be operating with the authority of the same deity. Both groups have at different times committed atrocities because of that belief. That’s not a stereotype that’s a historical fact. Surely you can see the potential danger in such beliefs.

Are you saying Muslim God is same as Christian God?

Atrocities committed by Christians have happened but it stems from Man's warped interpretation not from God's commands.

 

[ambush80]

I see the history, and even the potential of future atrocities, but a more honest, individual assessment is needed. Not just throwing a blanket judgement over religion as a whole.
Ambush said I was dangerous, and I still don't understand what caused him to think that.(as far as me individually)

I maintain that people who think that they get instructions from God are potentially more dangerous than those who don't because they can't be reasoned with. Particularly if they are overcome by the Holy Spirit and completely convinced of it. Likewise for people that make decisions based off chicken bones or reading tea leaves.

You can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

 

[bullethead]

The answer to this question is YES, but, you have a part to play also.

Is that your opinion?
There are quite a lot of predestination christians that absolutely know their God determined some people were never going to be in Heaven no matter what.
What would you say to those Christians to show them why they are wrong?

 

[oldfella1962]

Nope, you are the one that said "good ain't good enough," and "there are no good men." I simply disagree with those statements, no bitterness involved. The world isn't all darkness and evil, and all people weren't born bad or contaminated because of a woman eating an apple and talking to a snake several thousand years ago. Sorry.

you have just committed a sin so severe it should have been the eleventh commandment: stop saying Adam & Eve ate an apple! the Bible never says "an apple" it just says fruit. They didn't have apples in the region thousands of years ago. Apples are native to central Asia originally.

 

[welderguy]

I maintain that people who think that they get instructions from God are potentially more dangerous than those who don't because they can't be reasoned with. Particularly if they are overcome by the Holy Spirit and completely convinced of it. Likewise for people that make decisions based off chicken bones or reading tea leaves.

You can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

You basically just said that all Christians are unreasonable people.
I strongly disagree with that.

 

[atlashunter]

Are you saying Muslim God is same as Christian God?

Atrocities committed by Christians have happened but it stems from Man's warped interpretation not from God's commands.

Yes it’s the same god. Actually it would be more accurate to say that their gods share common origin.

 

[atlashunter]

I see the history, and even the potential of future atrocities, but a more honest, individual assessment is needed. Not just throwing a blanket judgement over religion as a whole.
Ambush said I was dangerous, and I still don't understand what caused him to think that.(as far as me individually)

Here is what he said in post 267.

People who believe that they are receiving instruction from God are potentially more dangerous than the average bear and at very least are a hinderance to secular, rational advancements; the kind that took us out of the dark ages.

Which part of that do you disagree with?

 

[atlashunter]

Atrocities committed by Christians have happened but it stems from Man's warped interpretation not from God's commands.

Just to cite one example, does the Bible not say thou shalt not suffer a witch to live?

 

[oldfella1962]

I wonder if this god told himself that when he created both the tormented and the place of torment with the full knowledge that he would spend eternity listening to their screams?

he won't be listening - he will have washed his hands of the whole affair. The default answer is "well they all had a choice so god's hands were tied. God has to do this to prove he hates sin so much."

But why would eternal torment be such a stretch for someone who killed 99.9 percent of the population in a flood near the very beginning of the creation of existence? Everyone should have seen more extreme violence coming at the end of creation/existence.
He's a straight shooter & he doesn't pull any punches either.

 

[welderguy]

Here is what he said in post 267.



Which part of that do you disagree with?

Again, he's making a blanket judgement. I can agree that it may include some, but I disagree if it includes all.
In post 387 Ambush says those that get their instructions from God cannot be reasoned with. Another all inclusive blanket assessment, which I disagree with.

 

[atlashunter]

I see the history, and even the potential of future atrocities, but a more honest, individual assessment is needed. Not just throwing a blanket judgement over religion as a whole.
Ambush said I was dangerous, and I still don't understand what caused him to think that.(as far as me individually)

Being delusional and thinking a third party is talking to you inside your head is bad enough as it is. Thinking that voice is an authority figure ups the ante. Thinking that voice holds absolute authority really ups the ante. If a voice in my head says to kill someone even if I’m convinced the voice isn’t me their command is still subject to reason. I can question it. I can weigh the pros and cons of carrying out the command. I can question the morality of it. And if I conclude the command isn’t just or the cons outweigh the pros I have no fear of retribution if I disobey. Even though I’m suffering from a delusion I still have the safeguard of my own reason. The god delusion short circuits that safeguard. It says that what god commands is moral by virtue of his having commanded it. That I am in no position to question and face the potential of eternal torment if I disobey. Now if you can’t say how this is as ambush said, potentially dangerous then I don’t know what to tell you. It may be that this voice only tells the person to do good things in which case no bad comes from it. But the point remains that the natural safeguard of reason has been bypassed in their mind and all it would take is for their delusion to steer them wrong. And it doesn’t even have to be malicious. A parent believes god has told them prayer will heal their child if they act in faith by not going to a doctor. They don’t intend to hurt the child and they don’t believe the voice has that intent either but the result can still be destructive because they’ve surrendered reason to delusion.

 

[ambush80]

You basically just said that all Christians are unreasonable people.
I strongly disagree with that.

I think that they believe something that's unreasonable. A ***** in the heart isn't reason. A personal revelation isn't reason either.

Reason

2. the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

Unreasonable

not guided by or based on good sense.

How can I reason with a person who says that God told them something? What if they say that God told them through His book that the Earth stopped in it's rotation and they believe it and I can't change their mind? How can I reason with them about it? Would it be fair to call them unreasonable?

I'll admit I was speaking too broadly. I recognize that people with unreasonable beliefs can be reasonable about all manner of other things.

 

[atlashunter]

Again, he's making a blanket judgement. I can agree that it may include some, but I disagree if it includes all.
In post 387 Ambush says those that get their instructions from God cannot be reasoned with. Another all inclusive blanket assessment, which I disagree with.

To the extent that you believe those instructions are inerrant and authoritative he is correct.

What is your take on divine command theory?

 

[oldfella1962]

I'm don't know why their version of God would be so ticked off at what they believe or don't believe, in this 100 year life span...that he would sentence them to everlasting suffering for ever, and ever, and ever, 1000 x our life and more. And.... created he11, as if he already knew what would happen???? That's like Santa Claus turning all the kids blind that don't believe in him.

god sent bears down from the hills to devour kids that made fun of the prophet Elishia. Talk about a situation escalating rather quickly! But when you are known for "working in mysterious ways" you have to apply the smack-down from time-to-time. to keep the people on their toes!

 

[atlashunter]

he won't be listening - he will have washed his hands of the whole affair. The default answer is "well they all had a choice so god's hands were tied. God has to do this to prove he hates sin so much."

But why would eternal torment be such a stretch for someone who killed 99.9 percent of the population in a flood near the very beginning of the creation of existence? Everyone should have seen more extreme violence coming at the end of creation/existence.
He's a straight shooter & he doesn't pull any punches either.

If he is omniscient then he will be cognizant of every expression of suffering. Forever.