9 points on the Bailout

Ol' Red

Banned
I posted this in the Political Forum, but I know many don't go in there. This clears up a lot of questions on the Bailout.

Red



According to the polls, most Americans look upon the bailout as a $700 billion blank check to Wall Street's fat cats. The arguments generally include some elements of economic unfairness and class warfare: Republicans vs. Democrats, capitalists vs. socialists, or Main Street vs. Wall Street.

Unfortunately, the ideological debate, while important, is hindering progress on a very real crisis: the American economy is slowly grinding to a halt. But it's not the American people's fault that they don't understand. This is a piece of legislation that needs to be sold. The issues are massively complex, the solutions are enormous in scope, and the numbers are just plain staggering.


Don't confuse the stock market with the credit market. Yes, the stock market lost 780 points Monday and regained 485 Tuesday. But that doesn't mean the crisis is over. That doesn't mean the credit markets are safe.

The stock market is about owning equities. Credit markets are about owing debt. People can live large but owe it all to the bank. So can economies.

One way to help clients understand the difference between the credit and equity markets is to offer an analogy. Think of the economy as a human body. The stock market is the body's temperature, while the credit market is the body's circulatory system.

Rising and falling temperatures indicate problems in the body, but they aren't the cause of the problem, and they can usually be managed with two aspirin.

Credit, on the other hand, circulates throughout the system, fueling businesses, industries, and consumers—all the organs that keep the economy alive. Shut off that blood—even choke it back a bit—and vital organs start to shut down. One organ failure leads to another until the whole system enters a death spiral. That's what happened in the depression of 1929.

The credit markets are frozen. The lifeblood of the capital system—the credit markets—is on the verge of totally seizing up, because banks don't trust each other's solvency. This solvency and trust issue has the potential to throw the economy into a coma.

Symptoms are already beginning to appear:

Bank of America refused loans to McDonald's franchisees, and United Airlines is "doing everything short of roaming through its cabins looking for loose change," said BusinessWeek.

California State University campuses, the largest four-year higher-education system in the country, warn they won't be able to accommodate rising enrollments due to budget concerns, reports the Los Angeles Times.

A tractor company recently announced it will no longer provide six months' credit on equipment parts, said Rochester, New York's Democrat and Chronicle.

Credit card companies are offering lower lines of credit, reports the Associated Press.

Approximately 65% of domestic banks have tightened lending standards over the last three months, the Federal Reserve Board reported in August. About 80% of banks reported tightening their commercial real estate loans, and 75% (up 60% from the previous survey) tightened their lending standards on residential mortgages.

How much more money do you want to lose? The government's failure to pass the bailout bill took $1.1 trillion off the market Monday—not to mention the trillion lost since the start of September.

Those kinds of losses come directly out of investors' accounts—a fact that will be very apparent when statements arrive in the next couple of weeks. More losses will be forthcoming as the credit markets convulse. True, the bailout may also cost investors $1 trillion dollars, but they won't have to pony up the cash immediately. In fact, there's a very good chance that taxpayers may never feel the hit if assets are sold in a profitable manner. And some of the best money managers in the world are lining up to sell those assets—for free!

Systemic problems require systemic solutions. Suppose an arm or leg loses circulation. Amputation is often necessary, but if you don't treat the circulatory issue, the patient could die. The rescues of Bear Sterns, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and AIG were amputations. But they didn't treat the underlying issue. The government needs a broad strategic approach to cure the bad mortgages. In effect, we need a treatment that either eradicates the malignant cells (bad mortgages) or transforms them into benign cells (good assets) that could eventually benefit the system.

Government intervention is necessary. In an ideal world where rational economic units transact business in a transparent and frictionless environment, markets might be able to work out dislocations on their own. But as noted economist John Maynard Keynes observed, markets aren't always self-correcting. Irrational investors can demonstrate extreme forms of "liquidity preference," stampeding into safe investments like three-month Treasury bills. "Once doubt begins, it spreads rapidly," he said.

Keynes advocated deficit spending during economic downturns to maintain employment and mitigate "social misery." Fed chairman Ben Bernanke, an expert on the Depression, has estimated that if the credit lockup continues, three to four million people could lose their jobs in the next six months.

While the bailout plan may not be perfect, it will create a market where the illiquid mortgage-backed securities can be valued and traded. It will set up regulatory oversight on how these toxic assets are valued and disposed of. It will get money and credit moving again.

And this isn't the first time the government has intervened to solve economic problems. During the savings-and-loan crisis of the 1980s, the government established the Resolution Trust Corporation, which made a profit of $394 million. President Clinton bailed out the Mexican peso, which made the American taxpayer $500 million. During the Great Depression, Congress established the Home Owners Loan Corporation, whose purpose was to refinance mortgages to prevent foreclosures, and it, too, turned a profit.

Nor does the bailout lead the way to increased socialism. This legislation is not the biggest government intervention ever. That honor belongs to Richard Nixon and his imposition of wage and price controls in 1971. Henry Paulson may privatize unprecedented amounts of debt, but Nixon commandeered the entire economy, says noted economist Robert Samuelson.

More toxic debt is coming. Clients need to be reminded that this is only the beginning of what could be a very prolonged crisis. Moody's Economy.com estimates that banks made 15 million questionable mortgage loans from 2004 to 2007. It estimates that 10 million of those will default.

These toxic assets are heading toward lenders' balance sheets in waves. The data, according to Clayton Holdings, a reporting service, is grim:

Subprime mortgage delinquencies have increased. The percent of loans made in 2006 that are now 60 days late reached 40.24% in August, up 5.49% from the previous month. The delinquency rate is 30.82% (up 6.05%) for subprime loans made in 2007.

The delinquency of Alt-A loans—so-called liar loans, because they were made with little documentation—is growing worse. For Alt-A loans made in 2006, the 60-day delinquency rate is 25.26%, up 9.44% from a month earlier. For Alt-A loans made in 2007, the 60-day delinquency rate is 22.65%, up 16.43% from a month earlier.

Foreclosures are declining somewhat, but not because there are fewer of them. Banks are slowing the process down because of falling housing prices—which means they are carrying a lot of inventory on their books.

The ratings services are increasing their loss assumptions. Standard & Poor's now estimates 40% losses on Alt-A and negative amortization loans, up from 35% earlier this year.

Many of the Alt-A loans were made to borrowers with good credit scores but who were not required to document their income or assets. Many of the loans were adjustable-rate, interest-only for the first five to seven years, so their defaults aren't even being felt yet.



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What's worse is that there are just as many Alt-A loans as subprime loans. Alt-A loans made up 28% of mortgage-backed securities in 2005—the peak of the lending bubble. Subprime made up 29%, and prime—loans to credit-worthy borrowers—made up 24%, according to Newsday.com.

The key point here is that we need a clearinghouse or program in place to deal with years of toxic assets. This is not just a 2008 problem, but one that could last well into the next decade.

We don't know what stocks are really worth. Companies are carrying more than $62 trillion in credit default derivatives on their books (compared with $1 trillion in subprime mortgages). These financial "weapons of mass destruction" are so convoluted and toxic that they have toppled such venerable companies as AIG, Bear Sterns, and Lehman Brothers. Warren Buffett has said it took him four years and $400 million to unwind the positions in one of his insurance companies.

Why are derivatives so important to get off the books? They are clogging up balance sheets, which affects earnings and stock prices. Price-to-earnings ratios are down, but they are still not cheap, says Rob Arnott, chairman of Research Affiliates, in a recent Pensions & Investing webcast. As balance sheets are cleaned up, there will be fewer market shocks, investors will regain their trust in the market, and equities can resume their upward trend.

Employment will stay steady. A thriving credit market means employment stays strong. Businesses keep selling and consumers keep buying. "Without the bailout, the unemployment rate could hit as high as 12%," said Brad DeLong, a professor of economics at the University of California at Berkeley. "A successful bailout could help keep the unemployment rate stay below 8% for the next year."

America's superpower status is at stake. It's imperative to show the rest of the world that the U.S. can act swiftly and responsibly in the face of a crisis. We must be sure that international creditors such as China and other nations continue to be confident in the security of the U.S. economy. Foreigners finance the American economy, and if they stopped buying Treasuries, or started selling their reserves, the dollar would fall and interest rates would rise, squeezing the economy further. "If we were an emerging market, the exchange rate would be down 70% and interest rates would be up at 25%—that's what a crisis looks like," says Kenneth Rogoff, an economics professor at Harvard University.

Perception may be even more important to military might than having a great army or the latest technology. Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, wrote in a recent editorial in the Los Angeles Times:

A visiting Israeli Cabinet minister made an interesting point at a conference in Washington over the weekend. The current financial crisis, he said, is undermining the perception of American power when it comes to dealing with problems such as the Iranian nuclear program, Russian adventurism, or the growing threat from Hamas and Hezbollah. Various actors around the world look at the U.S. and see a crippled giant. That reduces incentives to make concessions to Washington.

Is it merely coincidence that North Korea picked now to reactivate their nuclear plants? Or that Russia is selling arms and nuclear technology to Venezuela? Unfortunately, democratic dithering can look very messy to outsiders, and the lack of decisive action can undermine America's standing as a military and economic superpower.

The crisis is just beginning
In many respects, clients have been lulled into a false sense of security with events to date. The FDIC has quietly stepped in and rescued massive banks that were on the verge of insolvency. What clients may not fully realize is that those banks were indeed seized by the government. They failed. Runs had developed on the deposits. Shareholders were wiped out. And Ken Lewis, president of Bank of America, thinks another 4,000 could fail before this crisis is over.

Ad hoc measures will only go so far to stop the damage. Prolonging the debate is akin to doctors and insurers debating the treatment of the patient while he slowly bleeds out. Help your clients see what's at stake, and bring this issue to a resolution.
 

Jack Ryan

Senior Member
It's the best thing that could ever happen to this country if credit was completely eliminated in any capacity at ever level of business and government.

It's nothing but a scam for crooks, liars and cheats too lazy to work. One end or the other always is looking to get something for nothing on every deal.

If you want something, you should have to pay for it. If you can't pay for what you want, you shoud have to do with out it. Period.

In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle,
sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So
he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both
sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers
and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said:
'Get out of here.'(John 2:13-16)

Proverbs 22:7: "The rich rule over the poor and the borrower is servant to the lender." This proverb points out the hierarchical relationship between a borrower and a lender. Whenever money is exchanged for a fee, the lender holds the power and the borrower moves into a submissive role.

Deuteronomy 15:6 "For the Lord your God will bless you as He has promised, and you will lend to many nations, but none will rule over you."

Ezekiel 18:7, says he: "does what is just and right" and "returns what he took in pledge for a loan."

Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, but the righteous is gracious and gives.

Proverbs 22:7 The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower becomes the lender s slave.

Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Proverbs 22:26-27 Do not be a man who strikes hands in pledge or puts up security for debts; if you lack the means to pay, your very bed will be snatched from under you

Ecclesiastes 5:5 It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay

Lending scriptures from the Bible
What the Bible says about lending

Matthew 5:42

Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Proverbs 3:27-28

Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come back, and tomorrow I will give it," when you have it with you.

Exodus 22:25

If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest.

Leviticus 25:35-37

Now in case a countryman of yours becomes poor and his means with regard to you falter, then you are to sustain him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. Do not take usurious interest from him, but revere your God, that your countryman may live with you. You shall not give him your silver at interest, nor your food for gain.

Deuteronomy 23:19-20

You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest. You may charge interest to a foreigner, but to your countrymen you shall not charge interest, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land which you are about to enter to possess.

Proverbs 28:8

He who increases his wealth by interest and usury gathers it for him who is gracious to the poor.




Borrowing money is for the stupid and desperate, not for those who want independence and freedom.
 
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Otis

Guest
there's a very good chance that taxpayers may never feel the hit

very good chance? Did I do something wrong to be punished. I think all th CEO's and other top members of any buisness that recieves money needs to be fired, all assets siezed and sold, then throw them in jail. You want my money to bail out your mistake and I am suppose to smile about this?
 

QTurn

Senior Member
It's the best thing that could ever happen to this country if credit was completely eliminated in any capacity at ever level of business and government.

It's nothing but a scam for crooks, liars and cheats too lazy to work. One end or the other always is looking to get something for nothing on every deal.

If you want something, you should have to pay for it. If you can't pay for what you want, you shoud have to do with out it. Period.





Borrowing money is for the stupid and desperate, not for those who want independence and freedom.
[/I]

So you paid cash for your house? Must be nice....
 

Jranger

Senior Member
It's the best thing that could ever happen to this country if credit was completely eliminated in any capacity at ever level of business and government.

It's nothing but a scam for crooks, liars and cheats too lazy to work. One end or the other always is looking to get something for nothing on every deal.

If you want something, you should have to pay for it. If you can't pay for what you want, you shoud have to do with out it. Period.





Borrowing money is for the stupid and desperate, not for those who want independence and freedom.
[/I]


I'm guessing you do not own your own business or have to deal with clash flow issues due to customers paying net 30, 45, or 60?
If you do run your own business out of pocket, how about asking your parents to adopt me as well I could also use a backer...
 

Ol' Red

Banned
It's the best thing that could ever happen to this country if credit was completely eliminated in any capacity at ever level of business and government.

It's nothing but a scam for crooks, liars and cheats too lazy to work. One end or the other always is looking to get something for nothing on every deal.

If you want something, you should have to pay for it. If you can't pay for what you want, you shoud have to do with out it. Period.





Borrowing money is for the stupid and desperate, not for those who want independence and freedom.
[/I]

This has got to be the most ignorant comment ever posted on this board....

So you paid cash for your house? Must be nice....

X2...So you paid cash for you house, cash for your cars, cash for college, etc....I bet you self insure as well...:rolleyes:

For the factory that you work for, does your company pay cash for all of it's repair parts? How about new machines? I bet not. Do you think the company you work for has a account receiveables/account payable spot on the balance sheet? What do you think that is for? You cannot operate without it.

Red
 

parolebear

Senior Member
My views right or wrong.

I agree with the need for credit, but only wise credit. My problem with the "bailout" is that we (Americans) are bailing out people that abused the system. Because the loan requirements were relaxed people took loans they could not repay, took loans they never planned to repay and took loans to speculate to make money.

Banks loaned these people money at low variable rates, interest only loans and balloon notes with the draw of you'll be in better shape in a few years when it comes due. So we had an entire society that was living beyond their means. Now that the housing market fell and the value of the bank's property is not so high the banks, investors and people living beyond means now want someone to bail them out. They (We) are being bailed out because of GREED.

I made (make) monthly payments and have for 50 years. But it was on things that I could afford and needed. I have had banks try to loan me more money than I knew I could pay back, I hear of people having house payments of 40% of their take home pay. The bank that loaned the money should have some respondabilty but the people living above their means should have to live up to what they said. It has become too easy to get a loan and then dump the loan in todays society.

I read about people getting turned down for car loans, if they don't qualify then they should not get the money. We have to have guidelines and follow the guidelines. Relaxing the rules is not the answer to sound business sense.

I am against the bailout (right or wrong) as credit is there however easy credit is drying up. Easy credit needs to dry up. If your company has a cash flow problem 30, 45 or 60 days then change your policies or clients. I know that "hard times" will be ahead but we need to learn that big brother is not there to get us out of trouble.

People that I watched live the "good life" now want me and my family to pay for years to come to fix the party they have had for several years. When the banks and investors were making millions on skyrocketing property values I did not see them send me or the government extra help.

This is not a political party thing even though some try to make it one. It is GREED thing. My dumb opinion!!!!
 

Ol' Red

Banned
My views right or wrong.

I agree with the need for credit, but only wise credit. My problem with the "bailout" is that we (Americans) are bailing out people that abused the system. Because the loan requirements were relaxed people took loans they could not repay, took loans they never planned to repay and took loans to speculate to make money.

Banks loaned these people money at low variable rates, interest only loans and balloon notes with the draw of you'll be in better shape in a few years when it comes due. So we had an entire society that was living beyond their means. Now that the housing market fell and the value of the bank's property is not so high the banks, investors and people living beyond means now want someone to bail them out. They (We) are being bailed out because of GREED.

I made (make) monthly payments and have for 50 years. But it was on things that I could afford and needed. I have had banks try to loan me more money than I knew I could pay back, I hear of people having house payments of 40% of their take home pay. The bank that loaned the money should have some respondabilty but the people living above their means should have to live up to what they said. It has become too easy to get a loan and then dump the loan in todays society.

I read about people getting turned down for car loans, if they don't qualify then they should not get the money. We have to have guidelines and follow the guidelines. Relaxing the rules is not the answer to sound business sense.

I am against the bailout (right or wrong) as credit is there however easy credit is drying up. Easy credit needs to dry up. If your company has a cash flow problem 30, 45 or 60 days then change your policies or clients. I know that "hard times" will be ahead but we need to learn that big brother is not there to get us out of trouble.

People that I watched live the "good life" now want me and my family to pay for years to come to fix the party they have had for several years. When the banks and investors were making millions on skyrocketing property values I did not see them send me or the government extra help.

This is not a political party thing even though some try to make it one. It is GREED thing. My dumb opinion!!!!

You are correct in your thinking and I agree with you....I don't like the bailout. It HAS to happen though. The consequences of if not are far worse than if it does.....Lesser of the two evils.

Red
 

Jack Ryan

Senior Member
So you paid cash for your house? Must be nice....


It is nice. It is hard. It's not easy. It's a lot of work and a lot of discipline.

It's a lot of money, it's not SUPPOSE to be easy.
 

Jack Ryan

Senior Member
I'm guessing you do not own your own business or have to deal with clash flow issues due to customers paying net 30, 45, or 60?
If you do run your own business out of pocket, how about asking your parents to adopt me as well I could also use a backer...

Why would they back you? Nobody ever backed me.

I thought you people were republicans? Grab your boot straps and lift kids.
 

Jack Ryan

Senior Member
This has got to be the most ignorant comment ever posted on this board....



X2...So you paid cash for you house, cash for your cars, cash for college, etc....I bet you self insure as well...:rolleyes:

For the factory that you work for, does your company pay cash for all of it's repair parts? How about new machines? I bet not. Do you think the company you work for has a account receiveables/account payable spot on the balance sheet? What do you think that is for? You cannot operate without it.

Red

Yeah, I'm the dumb one. Yer brilliant kiddo. I suggest for you to just go right along doing what ya always do genius. It's what has gotton the country where we are right now.
 

Jack Ryan

Senior Member
You are correct in your thinking and I agree with you....I don't like the bailout. It HAS to happen though. The consequences of if not are far worse than if it does.....Lesser of the two evils.

Red

No it doesn't HAVE to happen. A bunch of dead beats who don't want to take responsibility for their own debt and bad investments WANT it to happen. The country happens to be run by criminals with unlimited ability to use threats and force to extort the population who are dead beats who don't pay their bills either.

That's why it will happen, not because it HAS to happen.
 

Jack Ryan

Senior Member
Define..."You People"....:huh:


Pretty much at least the majority of the board if not all of the board except for one other guy besides myself.

Granted I haven't met EVERY ONE, lol.
 

Odd Thomas

Member
Credit is a necessary evil to be used wisely. My farm was inherited from my dad, but my home in ga. was purchased on credit and paid for in 10 yrs. I have never owned a new vehicle and always pay cash for anything i buy. I will not be a slave to credit as a lot of folks are
 

Redbow

Senior Member
I agree we do have to have credit in this life or most of us do, but I do agree with Odd Thomas, it should be used wisely!

I know a lot of folks who took on more debts through credit than they will ever pay back in this lifetime! Some filed bankruptcy to keep from paying those debts, one person I know even did that twice! I believe people should be held accountable for their actions, pay for what you charge!

Yes I had a mortgage once like most people do but my wife and I worked hard and paid it off! We do not owe anyone anything now in this life except taxes to the county, state and federal government!

Too much credit is bad for anyone that makes the mistake of over extending themselves, individual or government!

I think I know what Jack Ryan meant by his statement, there are a lot of crooks in the credit business, along with everything else we have to deal with as individuals! But to say no one should have credit goes a little far in my opinion! We have to have it or most of us do, I am not a rich man now, nor have I ever been in this life! A lot of folks simply can't handle credit, they get themselves into one big miserable mess with it by having too much of it!

It feels wonderful to be out of debt in this life too, and most anyone can do that if they choose too! It takes a little self discipline, a lot of hard work and time for most of us!
 

bany

Senior Member
Some bailout was probably? neccesary,but what's appalling is the billion or so in PORK they HAD to throw in there!
 

elfiii

Admin
Staff member
It's the best thing that could ever happen to this country if credit was completely eliminated in any capacity at ever level of business and government.

It's nothing but a scam for crooks, liars and cheats too lazy to work. One end or the other always is looking to get something for nothing on every deal.

If you want something, you should have to pay for it. If you can't pay for what you want, you shoud have to do with out it. Period.





Borrowing money is for the stupid and desperate, not for those who want independence and freedom.
[/I]

You are so very wrong Jack. ;)
 

pbradley

Senior Member
I posted this in the Political Forum, but I know many don't go in there. This clears up a lot of questions on the Bailout.

Red



But as noted economist John Maynard Keynes observed,

Sorry, Red. That's all I needed to see in order to dismiss the author entirely.
 

BPR

Senior Member
Credit is a necessary evil to be used wisely. My farm was inherited from my dad, but my home in ga. was purchased on credit and paid for in 10 yrs. I have never owned a new vehicle and always pay cash for anything i buy. I will not be a slave to credit as a lot of folks are

Good post. Credit has a purpose, but like you said, many people are a slave to it and I do think that we have a growing problem in this country. It's not just home financing. Credit cards are killing alot of people. Wonder if those of us that have been smart with our money will have to bail out the poor victims that are suffering because of the predatory credit card companies. :banginghe
 
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