Do you have to be good to go to heaven?

[Ronnie T]

isnt that why there will be a judgment. not to judge the wicked and unsaved because their fate is sealed at death or the rapture. The saved will be judged according to their works. Christ knows we are going to sin. Some will try harder than others not to sin. I think of the part where some will have more stars in their crown than others.

But, for someone to advocate that you dont have to be good to go to heaven seems to shift into reverse what the gosple is all about IMHO. Seems like trying to follow God's commandments as opposed to just taking it for granted and not progressing through study and prayer would reap a grander reward. I hope this young lady realizes where this might put here on the scale to heaven if in fact she's serious.

Saw a church sign today that says " mercy and goodness are inseparable". Keep it up guys, I love your discussions.

Well thank you very much.
Someone who can look at a subject and discuss it without trying to minister church doctrine!!!!!
By the way, she was totally serious.

Thanks.

 

[Ronnie T]

Looking over the posts I would say most are saying that, not just some....I don't know what she said after the initial statement that got your attention.Ive taught teens and adults and there's times you need to make a blunt statement to get folks minds to working.
What she said is true, but it needs to be explained .

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

[hobbs27]

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Amazing how God works! He gave me a verse for the day last night. I posted it first and came here, we're in the same chapter.

lets look at v9

Verse 9. Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin;

The blood of Christ cleanses all sin, once it is applied it cleanses the sin of yesterday and tomorrow.Those that are born again, are born into the kingdom. This is why I say my judgement came at calvary. I don't believe the final judgement puts me in front of God to explain my works here, he knows them already.What I have read into the word is the final judgement is nothing more than a seperation of the sheep and the goats.

None of us can live this life here on Earth and not sin.
Romans 3:23-24
23.For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24.Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The teenager should have been explained what living bad after salvation gets you...Chastisement!

 

[fish hawk]

So are some of you saying that the young lady is correct in proclaiming to the young people of the church her husbands serves that "you don't have to be good!" ?

So what constitutes being good?I dont think I could ever be good enough to earn my way to heaven....thanks to Jesus I dont have to,earn that is.....Don't Muslims have a good and a bad scale???

 

[Artfuldodger]

I found this on 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a "portion" of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Amazing how God works! He gave me a verse for the day last night. I posted it first and came here, we're in the same chapter.

lets look at v9

Verse 9. Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin;

The blood of Christ cleanses all sin, once it is applied it cleanses the sin of yesterday and tomorrow.Those that are born again, are born into the kingdom. This is why I say my judgement came at calvary. I don't believe the final judgement puts me in front of God to explain my works here, he knows them already.What I have read into the word is the final judgement is nothing more than a seperation of the sheep and the goats.
QUOTE]

Does this mean since Jesus died for our sins and our sins are forgivin that we can go on sinning without even trying not to? We can lie, steal, and cheat and ask for forgiveness later. There isn't anything a Christian can do to put themselfs in danger of He11?

 

[hobbs27]

Does this mean since Jesus died for our sins and our sins are forgivin that we can go on sinning without even trying not to? We can lie, steal, and cheat and ask for forgiveness later. There isn't anything a Christian can do to put themselfs in danger of He11?

If you can stand the chastising...which you can't. God keeps us in line as any Good Shepherd would.He knows what it takes for each one of us.

 

[Artfuldodger]

If you can stand the chastising...which you can't. God keeps us in line as any Good Shepherd would.He knows what it takes for each one of us.

I agree our relationship with God is personal and different from each person. God knows what's in our hearts and who is trying to live right. It might be easier for one person than the next not to do a certain sin. Not everyone is an A+ non-sinner. This brings up the term "Accidental Sinning" verses sinning on purpose. That could really be a gray area.

 

[gtparts]

Yeah I know what you mean.
But her statement leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
We certainly should never consider ourselves good, but when a person says, "I don't have to be good to go to heaven" something got missed in the discipleship class.

I hope that she just made a poor choice of words in expressing herself. Often, there is a disparity in the truth and our understanding of that truth. And sometimes, we just get it wrong... or "speak" before we think.

I would say this. Scripture clearly points to those who love God, doing good deeds.

Ephesians 2:10

New Living Translation (NLT)

<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.


This reads very nearly the same in most translations. It could be said that God regards everything we do according to His will. He alone reserves the right to determine what is good and what is not.

At creation, God pronounced it "good" and after His crowning creation, mankind, He declared it "very good". Man and, indeed, his heart were good. Then, the Fall......
When we are saved, God gives us back a "good" heart and the desire to operate from that heart. Since salvation is totally the work of God, it is complete. Good works are not a necessity for salvation (so, technically, she is correct), but they (good works) are the natural and expected result, the motivated response, to being saved.

It sounds like Jesus is saying he isn't God. If Jesus isn't good, then is he saying he isn't perfect? In this same story he tells the man he must follow God's commandments and get rid of his worldly goods, if he wants to go to Heaven.
By what he told this man, there is more to getting to Heaven than being saved. There is something the man must do himself.
• Opening, Mark 10:17: Jesus was leaving on a trip when a rich young man came running up to Him asking how he could get to heaven.

• Middle, Mark 10:18-21: Jesus had a conversation with the young man telling him to obey the commandments to reach heaven. Jesus loves the man offers the young man a chance to follow Him, and he rejects Jesus offer.

• Closing, Mark 10:22: As a rich person, he was unable to give up material goods for spiritual goods to attain heaven.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/282550

I guess one could come away with that line of thinking. I find it more likely that Jesus is contrasting the efforts of man with the workings of God through man. The young aristocrat thought highly of his own efforts, yet he knew deep down inside that he was missing something. Christ showed him that his heart treasured his accumulated wealth above gaining eternal life... or helping relieve the plight of others. God is more concerned with who we are than in what we do. If we are the persons He created us to be, we will do the things He created for us to do.

I don't call once saved always saved "modern-day" teaching. It has always been this way for many Christians. So its "old-day" teaching. My belief is Christ died once for all folk as the perfect sacrifice. He does not need to die more than once. We die once with Christ, buried in water, and raised to new life in like manner of Christ's example. So once saved always saved in like manner. If a person who "claims" to be saved goes so far away from Christ then they need to take a long hard look at "if" they were saved to begin with. There are times we stray and do need to repent but we know we need to repent through the "pulling" of Christ and the Spirit of God (the Comforter) on our hearts. Even scripture calls this backsliding. It is not up to us to determine the salvation of someone else, only our own salvation. We are not saved by emotions but by Christ who "changes" the heart and spirit at the age of accountability when we know the need for Christ. As a personal experience, only God and the person knows the transformation of heart and spirit. Are we going to say, "I was saved yesterday but not today?" God forbid. How many times did Christ die and rise from the dead? I can bring up the scripture to reinforce once saved always saved.

Psalms 103:10-12
John 14:1-4
John 6:37
John 10:28
Romans 5:8-9
Romans 8:16,17,23
Romans 8:28-39
Ephesians 1:13, 4:30
Philippians 1:6
2 Timothy 1:12
1 John 3:14, 5:12

A great study on this is found in Charles F. Stanley's Life Principles Study Series, "Understanding Eternal Security". As he points out, there are at least two reasons why some doubt eternal security.

#1 We continue to sin after we are saved and many Christians have a difficult time understanding the difference between a sin nature and sinful acts.
#2 Certain passages of Scripture seem to say on the surface that a person can "lose" his salvation.

Stanley does a scholarly job of explaining and debunking the ignorance around this subject.

The key is the son chose to return as Ronnie pointed out. Of course the father still loved him. What father wouldn't? No one can snatch you from God's hands but you can yourself. Your free will doesn't vanish when you get saved. Once saved always saved must go hand in hand with election.
I don't think we can say , well that person was never saved.
Go over to the triple A, atheist & others forum and ask some of the former Christians if they were once saved.

You seem to have missed a key point in the story. A son is a son always; when he is at home, he is part of the family; when he goes his separate way, he is still part of the family; when he returns, contrite and humble, he is still family. So it is with God's family, those whom He has adopted. In the first century Roman Empire, if a person was adopted, by Roman law he or she received all the rights and privileges as any natural born heir. The one making the adoption could not rescind his own decision. Adoptions were not extremely common (more frequently, the one adopting had no living, natural born heir) because of the permanence of the new relationship.

 

[gtparts]

I found this on 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a "portion" of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.

There is another option. It could be that when John wrote down these thoughts, inspired by God, he was giving God's perspective, where the saved are viewed (by Him) as under the blood of Christ, perfect and sinless. If Christ did not die taking on all our sin punishment on the cross, then who can stand before God for the sins that were not covered? It is also apparent, as you wrote, that no one can "maintain" perfection. Perfection cannot be acquired in any way except by grace; we cannot earn it, nor could we maintain it. Thankfully, God can and does.

 

[rjcruiser]

So are some of you saying that the young lady is correct in proclaiming to the young people of the church her husbands serves that "you don't have to be good!" ?

What is your definition of "good?"

And I ask you again....

So I ask, the thief on the cross....Was he a good person?

Well thank you very much.
Someone who can look at a subject and discuss it without trying to minister church doctrine!!!!!

And we wonder why our churches are full of weak minded spiritual babes. They've never been taught doctrine...and when it comes up...they run the other way.

 

[Ronnie T]

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

*Make sure no one deceives you. There will always be new ways of thinking. Make sure no one deceives you! People who will want it to say what it doesn't day. Make sure no one deceives you? People who will not like the way it's worded. Make sure no one deceives you?

the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

"The one who practices, the one who lives in, the one who is comfortable, the one who never repents of it, the one who never turns from it.

 

[rjcruiser]

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

*Make sure no one deceives you. There will always be new ways of thinking. Make sure no one deceives you! People who will want it to say what it doesn't day. Make sure no one deceives you? People who will not like the way it's worded. Make sure no one deceives you?

the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

"The one who practices, the one who lives in, the one who is comfortable, the one who never repents of it, the one who never turns from it.

I agree with your above post....if you are saved, you will bear the fruit of your Heavenly Father.

But...do you have to have that fruit to be saved?


I think you've got the order a little mixed up RonnieT. Sanctification comes after Salvation...not before.

So I ask you again...

Was the thief on the cross a good person?

 

[speedcop]

obviously the thief on the cross was not a good person....... up to the point where Christ forgave him. Then his sins were blotted out from God's eyes. How many will have the opportunity to be next to Christ and recieve salvation and forgiveness in their last dying moments. He was like a new born baby entering the kingdom.

We, on the other hand given this great gift of salvation and Christ interceeding for our sins daily must continue to try to climb higher to Christ through our walk in this life and setting the example that Christ laid out for us. At least thats the way I percieve it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Why didn't God just put John 3:16 in the Bible? He could have left out all the stuff about living right, commandments, & Christian requirements. If I can live however I want to and still get to Heaven, that's all i'm worried about. I have a fear of He11, i'm not worried about various rewards, I just want to sneak in through the gate. This sure is a relief off my mind.
I know I should do my best to follow Jesus' teachings, but just to get a few extra perks, i'm glad I can be luke warm Christian.

 

[rjcruiser]

obviously the thief on the cross was not a good person.......

So, based on that example, you don't have to be a "good person" to be saved.

i'm glad I can be luke warm Christian.

Hmmm...just ask the Laodiceans.

 

[pstrahin]

Yes.

 

[Artfuldodger]

So, based on that example, you don't have to be a "good person" to be saved.



Hmmm...just ask the Laodiceans.

I agree, I don't think the Laodiceans will make it to Heaven.
I think faith without works is not going to work out for some people and I think it's more than rewards as in punishment.

 

[rjcruiser]

I agree, I don't think the Laodiceans will make it to Heaven.
I think faith without works is not going to work out for some people and I think it's more than rewards as in punishment.

But...the problem with your last line...is that the thief on the cross had no good works. Just a "deathbed" conversion. Does that mean he wasn't saved?

How does that reasoning and the rest of scripture apply to our own lives?


After all, either you believe in a works based salvation or you believe in a grace based salvation. Grace+Works just doesn't work...the two are incompatible when it comes to explaining salvation.

 

[Ronnie T]

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

*Make sure no one deceives you. There will always be new ways of thinking. Make sure no one deceives you! People who will want it to say what it doesn't day. Make sure no one deceives you? People who will not like the way it's worded. Make sure no one deceives you?

the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

"The one who practices, the one who lives in, the one who is comfortable, the one who never repents of it, the one who never turns from it.

Make sure no one deceives you.
Some will bring up the thief on the cross. Make sure no one deceives you. What I write is for you, not for the thief. Make sure no one deceives you. There's a million unanswerable questions concerning the thief. Make sure no one deceives you.
You are not the thief. Make sure no one deceives you.
"the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."