God's Salvation plan?

[Artfuldodger]

The covenant of promise was that God the Son incarnate would came and take away the sin of the world. That was the promise God made to His covenant people Israel. People from the outside could also become covenant people in the Old Testament as well. Just as Ruth told Naomi.
16 But Ruth said:

“Entreat me not to leave you,
Or to turn back from following after you;
For wherever you go, I will go;
And wherever you lodge, I will lodge;
Your people shall be my people,
And your God, my God.
17 Where you die, I will die,
And there will I be buried.
The Lord do so to me, and more also,
If anything but death parts you and me.”

In order to become an Israelite you had to forsake your god, little g and follow after the One true God, big G. Go to Hebrews 11 and see it was by faith that they too walked.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

How do we address this with "God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing?"

I'm trying to see God's timing for his plan to always include the Gentile in relation to to the revelation given to Paul.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 9:4-5
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God's adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Romans 11:12
Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

In his letter to the saints at Ephesus (Eph. 3:1-11), Paul says, that God by revelation made known to him the "Mystery," which in other Ages had not been made known unto the sons of men, "That the Gentiles should be 'Fellow Heirs,' and of the 'Same Body,' and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel."

In Rom. 16:25,26, Paul speaks of what he calls "My Gospel," which he calls the "Revelation of the Mystery," which was kept "Secret" since the world began, but now is made "manifest." It was the "revelation" that was promised to Paul at his conversion (Acts 26:16-18), and which comprises the "Mysteries of God."

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,


Personally, I don't have an answer. I can see what Ruth is saying and what it says in Hebrews as well. Then Paul comes along and messes with me.
In the military, I was taught to go with the last message received. To consider the previous messages somehow but the last massage is the utmost one to follow.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Spineyman]

How do we address this with "God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing?"

I'm trying to see God's timing for his plan to always include the Gentile in relation to to the revelation given to Paul.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 9:4-5
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God's adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Romans 11:12
Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.

Hosea 2:23
23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to those who were not My people,
‘You are My people!’
And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’ ”

 

[Artfuldodger]

Hosea 2:23
23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to those who were not My people,
‘You are My people!’
And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’ ”

How does that verse and the others in the Old Testament work with God's "timing" you mentioned earlier?

Ephesians 2:13-14
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household,

How do we reconcile the Old Testament verses with the timing of Paul's revelation?
"Which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets?"

 

[Artfuldodger]

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Yet Ruth knew about the mystery. Was she aware of the eternal plan revealed to Paul?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Hosea 3:1
The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another man and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."

Hosea 3:5
Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

God's timing indeed! God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Hosea 1:10-11
"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'children of the living God.'
11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will come together; they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.

Romans 9:4-5
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

God's timing?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Hosea 2:23
23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to those who were not My people,
‘You are My people!’
And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’ ”

Ok, hope this is the last of my series. Paul quotes Hosea in Romans 9:

Romans 9:25-27
As He says in Hosea: “I will call them My people who are not My people, and I will call her My beloved who is not My beloved,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Romans 9 takes us to the Stumbling Stone;

God's timing?

 

[Spineyman]

How does that verse and the others in the Old Testament work with God's "timing" you mentioned earlier?

Ephesians 2:13-14
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household,

How do we reconcile the Old Testament verses with the timing of Paul's revelation?


"Which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets?"

Because God's plan for mankind is all about time. That is why we call it His Story, history! It is all unfolding in His time. Paul showed up in History precisely when God ordained for him to come.

Galatians 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

 

[Spineyman]

Ok, hope this is the last of my series. Paul quotes Hosea in Romans 9:

Romans 9:25-27
As He says in Hosea: “I will call them My people who are not My people, and I will call her My beloved who is not My beloved,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Romans 9 takes us to the Stumbling Stone;

God's timing?

Absolutely God's timing.Absolutely nothing happens without the knowledge and express will of God. Everything that happens in history is according to the council of His Will. No such thing as chance,or accident, it is all divine timing, or appointment!

 

[Artfuldodger]

Absolutely God's timing.Absolutely nothing happens without the knowledge and express will of God. Everything that happens in history is according to the council of His Will. No such thing as chance,or accident, it is all divine timing, or appointment!

Then how did people"on the outside" in the Old Testament become covenant people, as Ruth told Naomi?

If it was within of God's timing;

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Like you said;
"God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing,"

It's your use of the word "timing." Most holders of the Reformed view don't see "timing" in the equation. They say God works beyond or out of timing.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Now if we return to the OP or the Old Testament, the Law was given. This Covenant was given by God to His people in "time."
Later, in God's "timing" Jesus came to redeem the Law. The Law given from God to his people in "time."

Then, within time, God reveals to Paul the mystery/secrets of presenting the gospel/salvation to the Gentiles who were once without hope and God.
Per Romans 11; Israel's rejection brought reconciliation to the world. A time concept revealed to Paul from Jesus. Finally the dividing wall comes down. There is no longer Jew or Gentile. No more strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel.

I would agree it is all about God's timing.

So back to Ruth and Naomi, how does that relate to the timing revelation given to Paul?

I would agree, nothing is left for chance. It is all about God's timing.

 

[Spineyman]

Gen 41:45-52

45Pharaoh gave Joseph the name Zaphenath-paneah; and he gave him Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, as his wife. Thus Joseph gained authority over the land of Egypt.46Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went through all the land of Egypt.47During the seven plenteous years the earth produced abundantly.48He gathered up all the food of the seven years when there was plenty in the land of Egypt, and stored up food in the cities; he stored up in every city the food from the fields around it.49So Joseph stored up grain in such abundance—like the sand of the sea—that he stopped measuring it; it was beyond measure.50Before the years of famine came, Joseph had two sons, whom Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, bore to him.51Joseph named the firstborn Manasseh, “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father's house.”52The second he named Ephraim, “For God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortunes.”
Exod 2:16-21

16The priest of Midian had seven daughters. They came to draw water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock.17But some shepherds came and drove them away. Moses got up and came to their defense and watered their flock.18When they returned to their father Reuel, he said, “How is it that you have come back so soon today?”19They said, “An Egyptian helped us against the shepherds; he even drew water for us and watered the flock.”20He said to his daughters, “Where is he? Why did you leave the man? Invite him to break bread.”21Moses agreed to stay with the man, and he gave Moses his daughter Zipporah in marriage.
Exod 4:25-26

25But Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched Moses' feet with it, and said, “Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me!”26So he let him alone. It was then she said, “A bridegroom of blood by circumcision.”
Deut 23:3-4

3No Ammonite or Moabite shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of their descendants shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord,4because they did not meet you with food and water on your journey out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam son of Beor, from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you.

Which mean not all are excluded from being converted.
Gen 17:10-14

10This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.11You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.12Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring.13Both the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.14Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
Exod 12:44

44but any slave who has been purchased may eat of it after he has been circumcised;

Exod 12:48

48If an alien who resides with you wants to celebrate the passover to the Lord, all his males shall be circumcised; then he may draw near to celebrate it; he shall be regarded as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it;
Ruth 1:16-17

16But Ruth said, “Do not press me to leave you or to turn back from following you! Where you go, I will go; where you lodge, I will lodge; your people shall be my people, and your God my God.17Where you die, I will die— there will I be buried. May the Lord do thus and so to me, and more as well, if even death parts me from you!”

Then we have the most famous from Ruth, who chose to forsake her own and enter into covenant both with Naomi and Naomi's God! So there we see that outsiders can and did enter in to covenant with the Old Testament God, which is the same as the New Testament God with a better way to enter!

 

[Spineyman]

Ruth went on to marry her kinsman redeemer and was added into the lineage of the bloodline of Jesus' earthly family tree!

 

[Artfuldodger]

Ruth went on to marry her kinsman redeemer and was added into the lineage of the bloodline of Jesus' earthly family tree!

You gave a very good explanation of being grafted into the Commonwealth in the old testament. I do see it, I can picture it. Best explanation ever. Your post #33 & #34 were great, thanks for taking the time to present it so well.

My question though is how do we explain what Paul was given by revelation? Paul say's the gentiles were previously without God and without hope being strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel and the promises.

That a remnant was chosen from Israel and the rest were hardened to allow salvation to come to the Gentiles. Their loss was our gain.
The wall of hostility was finally removed. No longer was their Jew or Gentile, man or woman, free or slave.

This is what Paul said his revelation was. This mystery/secret. His revelation and his mission given from God.

 

[Spineyman]

Because God did have a set apart people, that were different even in their diet. That the whole world, those outside the faith would see and desire what they had that was different. The Jewish leaders didn't do their jobs well and excluded the whole lot of them. It is true apart from the religion of the Jews then you were outside the camp. It was an exclusive group, all or nothing. That is also why Ruth said exactly what she said, it was all inclusive. Yes Paul was indeed the Apostle sent to the Gentiles, that even Peter bucks at first, but Paul straightened him right out. So yes, outside the faith meant you were without hope. Just like today, if you are outside the faith in Jesus Christ, you are outside the Hope. For there is one name under heaven given among men where by we must be saved, that is Jesus Christ the righteous. There is no other way to the Father but by me. Said Jesus!

 

[Israel]

Because God did have a set apart people, that were different even in their diet. That the whole world, those outside the faith would see and desire what they had that was different. The Jewish leaders didn't do their jobs well and excluded the whole lot of them. It is true apart from the religion of the Jews then you were outside the camp. It was an exclusive group, all or nothing. That is also why Ruth said exactly what she said, it was all inclusive. Yes Paul was indeed the Apostle sent to the Gentiles, that even Peter bucks at first, but Paul straightened him right out. So yes, outside the faith meant you were without hope. Just like today, if you are outside the faith in Jesus Christ, you are outside the Hope. For there is one name under heaven given among men where by we must be saved, that is Jesus Christ the righteous. There is no other way to the Father but by me. Said Jesus!

Ain't it something that Jesus is spoken of as being sacrificed outside the camp! "let us go to Him there, bearing His reproach"

Religion (in the sense of "rules of practice") will always allow for the outward demonstration of something being done. It's a vain thing, even at its very "best" when weighed against the new life given in Christ. And vain in both meanings, both a vanity to the man, and vain in that it cannot reveal to nor convert the soul to that which (Whom) can only be revealed by the Spirit.

I do not use your response Spiney as anything other than show of a provoking of thought. It is not that you need any instruction, and from me, least of all. The things you mention..."move in me". Stir me.

We do not know how deeply ingrained this thing of desire "to show" ourselves right by practice is until we begin to follow the Lord. O! then the battle is on. What, who, will reign in the soul? The man who needs to "show himself good" or the man who is already accepted in Christ?

The perfect sense of Jesus Christ then becomes clear to us as we begin to plainly sense this battle taking place in our soul. "Pray in your closet" "do your alms in such manner that your right hand does not even know what the left does" in others words (to me at least) strenuously avoid the pitfall to the soul where it satisfies "itself" in what it has done...or does, or is doing.

Giving is done without any notice to the soul "Now I have done a 'good thing' "
Prayer no less. The man who may say "I pray a lot", "I attend much to the things of God", might just as well be saying to another man..."I breathe very often".

Indeed all, and everything one might hold up as good to demonstrate to another of "standing in God" comes under this spotlight. The life...speaks for itself, and is totally unreliant on man, both his ability to demonstrate and his ability to impart. One cannot even "commend one to the battle" as though by testimony it could show "I have been engaged in a battle of effort", for it is not at all really...it is only, and no less that the Lord (if there be any sense of battle whatsoever) is showing His victory over weak and beggarly elements. The Lord knows what is laid on the altar here, and if it be to Him alone, it must remain...to Him, alone.

No wonder then Paul said, when speaking of those things that might point to his having done anything, lost anything, sacrificed anything at all, endured anything "for the Lord" he said "I speak like a fool". But Paul was pressed to, by whatever the circumstance, to those who looked only on outward things (yet babes in Christ)...to do so. If they were going to weigh by the "outer"...and accord esteem according to them...let them then chew on these things demonstrable. Paul had scars. If need be, he was made willing to be embarrassed as the man showing them. But not without also adding "this is a foolish thing to do". But Paul was willing to appear...more than fool for their sake...the body to which he had been called as first, member, and then (in temporality only) caretaker. (He was always indeed...relentlessly seeking "to work himself out" of that job. By whatever means and in whatever means pups may be helped to the teat...he stood ready. He knew...once that connection was made, and firm, his work is done. "Till Christ be fully formed".)

Do we yet need such? Are we not to discern by exercise of discipline what is taking place "inside"? This smell to which our noses are to be attuned, this fragrance, this odor...this sensing...is it not made ours in Christ? A stink to one is a welcome fragrance to another. Do we sniff in recognition? Of course we do! We can't escape it! We...smell stuff! Do we smell the restraint of the Spirit's work in a man? Do we see brilliant men (alight by the Spirit's brilliance)...willing to appear fools? Or do we like the unbeliever...yet still see only fool? One to be "easily overlooked" and disregarded? Not "taken to heart"? O! how I thank God for them!

I thank God for the many who appear here, even in this forum, such as it is, that reprove me of my own foolishness, demonstrate a life I sense and have necessity to apprehend...in short...show me Jesus Christ...ALIVE and ACTIVE, and by such...bring discipline to a wild a** of a man so in need of taming and training by the Spirit. They wound me not seeking to, they reprove me not trying to, they cripple me not wanting to...by their plain, and disciplined walking after the Spirit. Faithful are the wounds of a friend.

I marvel. And I marvel at this taking place only..."outside the camp" specifically.

"When a man's ways please the Lord He causes even His enemies to be at peace with him".

I marvel at how Jesus makes friends. How Jesus turns enemies to something able to be made "at peace with Him". I surely, as God knows...did not seek to marvel. I sought what I could keep in my "bag" only...to my own benefit. Something taken in I see in new wineskins...and as my own tears in utter demonstration of unfitness.

I cry out both help!...and thanks be to God!

 

[Spineyman]

Israel, here it is in a nut shell. I realize the longer I walk with the Lord that there is no good thing in me. There are none who do good, no not one. So with Isaiah I cry out as well, I am undone, which means I am in utter ruin.

Isaiah 6:1-7

6 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 So I said:
“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord of hosts.”

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth with it, and said:
“Behold, this has touched your lips;
Your iniquity is taken away,
And your sin purged.”

 

[Madman]

Everyone has a goat nature. Some also have a sheep nature as well. There is a day when the goat is sent away into the wilderness never to be seen again. God does not "know" the goat.He tells it to depart. He knoweth His sheep. He tells it to inherit the kingdom.

remember. "I pray not for the world, but they that are in the world".

I believe all have some amount of "sheep nature".

The church fathers had an interesting analogy of how we ultimately are saved. There was a King who saw a street child and decided to adopt him. The king brought him into the palace and placed the prince in charge of teaching and grooming this street child.

It was the responsibility of the street child to watch the prince and follow his every move and direction so that ultimately he could grow into a prince himself.

Ultimately it is about more than just our salvation, it is about our deification.

 

[gordon 2]

So it is that we wrap ourselves into our baptism, deep down we go into our shroud of water, for we have died, and risen to eternal life--born again, are made fresh to a new life in love's grasp. For love killed what was dead in all of us, and birthed what was living in our original makeup: life with Him--life eternal-- wholesome and forever.

And yet, we send our children to kill and to covet... not unlike our fathers did? Our sins purged we claim to be heirs, ours is light we claim, to a city prepared we claim, kingdom inheritors we are, saved I am, craving a second coming as uprights..