Background/History

[SBG]

You can't say the same about Christianity.

Kerri, you are making a definitive statement that simply is not established by the facts. There are many Christains today that still contend for the faith once delivered. They were never part of any Roman Catholic council and they weren't part of any protestant reformation. They survive extant since the apostolic age. The text that they derived their canon of scripture from is much different than that of other groups from Christianity.

Like what? I've never heard any Jews disagree on what scriptures were to be in the Tanakh ("Old Testament")

I never said anything about excluding scripture from the Tanakh. I said that they disagree on which scripture had authority. Orthodox Jews for instance have canonized the Talmud, where some other groups, the names of the sects escapes me now, believe that only the Tanakh has spiritual authority.

Don't take this as an attack. It is just as a means to give evidence to others reading here, that there are vast differences in the beliefs inside Judaism...just as there are inside Christianity, Islam etc. It would seem from reading your post that you were wanting to make it appear that all of Judaism is in lock-step agreement, they simply are not.

 

[Flash]

You're correct, of course. However, since my first dealing with the Jews for Jesus was with their founding leader, I figured that's the attitude that he was teaching his followers, therefore why would I think it would be any different face to face?

Hugs!
Kerri

So what are you waiting for? Talk with others.

 

[matthewsman]

Thanks Renee for posting on the history and origin of the Bible

Who'd of thought your post to inform and showcase an author that believes as you do would turn into a debate of the validity of scriptures?I don't know why,and can't imagine how Judaism and the scriptures held valid by the Jewish faith came to be the crux of this post.

It's like if I was required to write 20 pages on Cardinals,(the bird,not the Catholic religious figure)and knew very little about them.So instead,being an expert on Bue Jays,decided to compare them.By placing the emphasis on Blue Jays,instead of the Cardinals I fill the 20 pages.

This is what is happening here........

 

[SBG]

However, in all three divisions, there is an agreement on who God is and what God isn't. This has never been debated. Hugs!
Kerri

Now Kerri. You have got to know that that statement isn't accurate. There are many differences of opinions not only between the three divisions, but within them as well. Why do you suppose that there are so many different sects under the orthodox banner, the reformed, the conservative? Because there is not a consensus belief on the scriptures, practices, or even the nature of God. And again, this ain't an indictment against Judaism since the same thing occurs in Christianity, Buddhism, Hindusim, Islam, Jainism, Taoism, etc.

I will grant you that they are in agreement of who God isn't; but, I wouldn't take any solace there, Muslims don't believe that Christ is God either.

 

[SBG]

Hmmm.... I would be very interested to know what differences the divisions of Judaism have about the nature of God, as this is definitely something I have never heard before, and I have studied with members of all three divisions. Since you say there are divisions, I am not going to contradict you because obviously you have seen some information I have not. Would you please share with me where you got this from? I'm sincerely interested in checking it out.

By the way, SBG, have I told you lately that I love you?


Hugs!
Kerri

Well...it has been awhile. I'll look it up and post. I learned it from a co-worker who is Jewish. We used to talk about stuff all of the time and this very subject came up. He asked me why there were so many different denominations in Christianity. So I told him and then asked him the same thing. He looked puzzled and said that there are no divisions....er, unless you mean Othodox, Reformed, Liberal, Conservative, etc. The one thing that I recall that he said what was different was the opinion on the authority of canonized text, and the "self-limited omniscience of God" I did do some reading on the subject, but not extensively.

I love you too!

 

[GeauxLSU]

I have a question in regards to the above. If someone believes only in the Old Testament and that everybody is going to Heaven or wherever, then why does that person argue so passionately about it and try to persuade others. At the end of the day, that person should just chuckle to themselves, laughing at those foolish Christians, and then continue on their day without worrying about it? Why not laugh at the Christians, let them believe what they will and they will end up in Heaven anyway?

I wouldn't have a problem with that at all. Wouldn't bother me as a Christian other than to be a matter of prayer for that person's salvation.

However, if that person is trying to persuade other people to believe as they do, then they are risking other people's salvation as well. Why run that risk? If we are all going there anyway, why not leave it alone and we'll all get there anyway. That person has the safest position around. No worries. However, if that person is wrong, then they are potentially destroying other's hopes of salvation. In other words wouldn't it be better to leave well enough alone without potentially jeopardizing someone's eternal salvation. I would have an issue with that.

This of course could also be an arguement against missionary work or witnessing all together.

 

[Back2class]

Im going to jump in here.
I think the conflict some have with the original post was the way it was worded. The fact is the first post was really just an opinion, worded so as to sound as proven fact. It didnt sit right with me because it claimed to be so factual. In actuality its misleading and in some ways factually wrong. For every one of us who "have their mind made up already" there is someone else forming their views. So I and others may feel a moral duty to bring such issues up.
Please understand the importance of the "First Council of Nicaea". It was Constantine's effort to consolidate power, He personally dictated what christianity would be for his political purposes.

So it really comes down to the basic argument.....Did God have a divine hand in every aspect of the of the religion and its text, or did man? If you believe in the first, then the good book is accurate. If not, then it cant be anything more than a very well published book of stories that are based in ancient history.


I personaly am still figuring it out, the more I studied history, the more I question. The more I marvel at the beauty of the universe, the more I question again.

 

[PWalls]

This of course could also be an arguement against missionary work or witnessing all together.

For someone like I mentioned, yes.

However, as a Christian, I believe there is only one way to Heaven. That is through Christ Jesus. I also have been given the "Great Commission" to witness for Christ and show others the one way to Heaven. I don't believe that you just get there because you are good. So, I believe missionary work is very important because the Bible tells us to do it.

Someone that believes everybody goes to Heaven really has no car in the race. So, why try and "turn" people from where they are?

 

[ilikembig]

By the way, who actually was the author? I don't recall Renee listing her source.... I looked again in her 2 posts but didn't see it anywhere.



Hugs!
Kerri

This material was taken from the workbook,
"Prove All Things" from the Overcoming Life Series Study Series)
by Betty Miller

 

[leroy]

If we were all going to Heaven why was there a sacraficial system in the OT. Why is there any reference to sin and forgiveness if we are all going what difference would it make? makes no sense to me.

 

[GeauxLSU]

Someone that believes everybody goes to Heaven really has no car in the race. So, why try and "turn" people from where they are?

Gotcha'. Agreed.

 

[PWalls]

PWalls, do you think that somewhere deep down, I believe I am going to he!! and am just trying to round up others to take a party down with me?

I would hope that you don't believe that. That would be a truly evil person.

If that were true, then I could see your argument about me possibly jeopardizing someone's eternal salvation. But since I don't believe that, why would I worry if I am possibly doing it?

I agree. If you don't believe in Jesus or anything about Him, especially how He is the path to Heaven, then you will not worry about spreading your beliefs that He was nothing more than a mortal man.

As a fellow human being, I don't want to watch other people needlessly suffer spiritually. It isn't about what happens after death, it is about how people feel here in life. Should someone have to go through this life filled with worry and doubt and guilt and fear? I don't think that's how God intended for us to live.

As a Christian, I don't want to see your "good intentions" lead others from the path of salvation. It is my firm belief that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. I understand that you don't believe that. What saddens me is that other Christians are listening to your views (which are in direct conflict to a Christian belief) instead of finding comfort in their Christian brethren. And, God forbid, a lost soul is hearing your beliefs and turning away from their salvation completely. You may have "found" your answers (although it still amazes me that you would find and be happy with the ones that you did), but I am praying that others stay far away from them.

If sharing my experience and asking questions helps someone else to be more secure in their beliefs within their own soul (either for or against, no matter to me), then it doesn't matter to me what other people think.

Let's re-write the above into how I see it. "If sharing my experience and asking questions leads a lost soul down the path to he!!, then it doesn't matter". Again, I think that is what your experiences and answers will do.

To do otherwise would be like seeing a man dying of thirst and withholding water because he is better off dying quickly rather than suffering slowly.

Actually what you are doing is giving him water that is just as deadly because of the poison it contains.

Again, this is hard to explain, so I apologize if my thoughts aren't coming through clearly.

Same here. I apologize if I am coming across as harsh.

On the other hand, you and other Christians do believe that people will go to he11 if they don't believe as you do. However as stated here on an earlier post, the belief seems to be that those who never hear about Jesus are not held accountable and automatically go to heaven. So in that regard, aren't you doing a dis-service to people by spreading the gospel? If you tell them about Jesus, then they are now obligated to believe what you say or else go to he11. If they don't believe you, they are doomed for eternity. Would it not have been better to let them bask in their ignorance and just go to heaven by default? Why would you want to jeopardize someone's salvation like that?

Clarification. I do not believe the above. I believe that if a person does not accept Jesus, then they will go to he!!. That includes any tribal African that I fail to get the gospel knowledge in front of. So, no, actually, I believe that if I don't share the gospel and witness about Jesus then, I am failing.

Your beliefs are the ones that have a true safety or catch net. You don't believe any of that. If you truly believe what you say you do, then you should sit at home and never mention anything about God or Heaven or Jesus to anyone, because who cares right? Everybody is going anyway, Let them believe what they want.

 

[Dudley Do-Wrong]

Kind of reminds me of a quote I saw:
“Tolerance is the virtue of those who believe in nothing”.

In order for one to be tolerant, one must accept all beliefs, many of which are in contradiction of one another. The only way to be accepting of all of these beliefs, one could not have a specific belief of their own because that belief would be in contradiction of one or more of the beliefs that person is in acceptance of.

If Jesus Christ is only one of multiple ways of getting to heaven, then Jesus Christ is a liar. If a muslim believes that a Christian will go to Heaven, then Mohammad is a liar. If a Jew believes that a pagan will go to heaven, then God is a liar.

They can’t all be right because they all contradict one another.

 

[PWalls]

These long posts are wearing my fingers out.

1. I actually don't think that there is anything major wrong with a Christian asking you a question. I just pray that they have the proper discernment to glean the truth from your answers. I also think that yes, some Christians, will come off harsh when answering questions. I think that is a human trait we all share and it takes time to overcome that. So, no I don't deny that it happens.

2. I am sure you can find a conspiracy in just about anything nowadays. You did read my response on the other thread/post right? There are very simple reasons why the new testament is handed out to visitors. I though I did a good job explaining it. I guess not. Let's try this. Knowing that a visitor is only going to have a short attention span and you need to get something in front of them that will quickly peak their interest and knowing that a Christian church (note the word "Christ" in that) wants to expand the Gospel and preach the plan of salvation, why would you not give them a short book that does all of the above? Why give them a book that has all of the other books that deal with law and such? Once they come back and believe, then of course give them the entire Bible and set them up in a Sunday School class to help them understand it and grow in their faith and encourage them to read the whole thing from cover to cover on a daily basis. By the way, I am currently going through Proverbs. So, here's a Christian that loves the entire Bible, not just the New Testament.

3. Yes your analogies did not relate. You are offering your experiences and "help" I am sure out of the goodness of your heart. However, the final result is what I am concerned about.

4. A "threat" to the Christian faith? No more so than any other false prophet that we are warned will spread falsehoods. In the end, you will have to give account before the Lord and I pray that you will not have lost souls on your account sheet. I know I will have lost souls that I will have to account for because I didn't witness to them. Maybe another thread topic here, but which is worse, failure to witness to a lost soul or deceitful to witness to a lost soul, either of which lands that sould in He!!.


DD, I am quite sure you are a good and decent person (Ya Ya stuff aside ). However, I think you are preaching or at least typing/relaying a falsehood that is potentially damaging to young Christians and the lost.

 

[PWalls]

Yes, you did give a very nice explanation regarding the reason for giving out only the NT to church visitors, I am sorry. I think I overlooked it in all the other posts. I still say though that by doing that you are already subconsciously putting the seed in their minds that the NT is superior to the OT. Again, speaking from personal experience It also doesn't make much sense in a contextual view, either. Sort of like reading the ending of a murder mystery before you read the beginning. Since you already know 'who done it', you have that in your head the entire time you read the book, so nothing is left to your own deductions. Whereas, if you had read from the beginning in the first place, you may have had a different outlook on things when you got to the end of the book. I will just agree to disagree on this.

Again. We are talking about visitors to the Church. The main goal in a church with respect to visitors is to get them to come back in the near future. There is no time to give them a Bible and say come back when you are through reading it. Also, again, I go to a Christian Church. Nothing to hide there. We are Christ centered. That means we preach and teach Christ. So, naturally we are going to hand out the New Testament (the Book that has the word of Christ) to visitors. If they become members of our church, then they will receive the entire Bible. Nothing superior/inferior about it. That is totally in your head. Again, I know of no God-fearing Christian that would ever say that the Old Testament is inferior to the New Testament (I believe I made a statement about Paul's writings versus others).

I can't really believe that you would rather have me talk to the folks who ask me questions in private only and not give Christians the opportunity to say their understanding too, but I could be wrong. I would bet that not many on here who get into these discussions with me would want me to be the main opinion in a questioning Christian's quest for answers In fact I will be honest and say I am sometimes amused at things that are said here because I ask myself, would any of them really want me to come to their church? I mean, really? Would they truthfully want me to step foot in their congregation? Probably not

I don't know where you got that, but definately not. I would rather all the discussions be open. Again, it is a shame that Christians are turning towards you because they are either ashamed or afraid to ask the question in an open manner here. You could step foot in our Church anytime you wanted to and sit next to me. Be prepared for some good singing and some good preaching on Jesus Christ though.

I appreciate the discussions on here and the fact that people are able to voice their questions even if not directly. And I appreciate people like you who are willing to give their answers and opinions as well. Yes, some Christians will come off harsh when answering their questions. I have been guilty of this as well. Gee, what a concept... we are all human!!

Hugs!!
Kerri

Actually, and this is , we are all sub-human. God made Adam and Eve as the perfect humans. When they sinned and death/imperfection entered the worls, we all became sub-human. Just a conversation I had with my Pastor one day.

 

[PWalls]

No ma'am. I think all discussions should be open. Especially as it concerns your discussions. That way any of the more knowledgeable Christians on here can come along and debunk your advice.

Asking questions is the only way to grow. However, I think a person should be careful of whom they ask that question to. There is nothing to be ashamed of about an individual's maturity or knowledge about God because at one point all Christians were/are at that point as well.

Southern Baptist, baby!

Sub-human is just the closest word I can think of. In God's eyes, Adam and Eve were what he intended for humans to be. We are not like that, therefore we are less-than-human. I know that is splitting hairs.

 

[PWalls]

Is that some good get-out-of-your-chair-and-dance-in-the-aisle- type music?

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri

Hold on now. Let's not get too carried away.

 

[StriperAddict]

Hold on now. Let's not get too carried away.

Quite the contrary...



David danced before the Lord... (some of you walking concordances might find the reference before me )



I think if some of U baptists would get out in the aisles it just might add to your worship experience!!
oops,

boy, am I gonna git it

 

[Spotlite]

Quite the contrary...



David danced before the Lord... (some of you walking concordances might find the reference before me )



I think if some of U baptists would get out in the aisles it just might add to your worship experience!!
oops,

boy, am I gonna git it

See you just backslid

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I think if some of U baptists would get out in the aisles it just might add to your worship experience!!

AMEN!!!!


Bandy